CM 99-12 Starting Position

[nuidad]

5 hours ago, bret said:

Is standing inside the shooting area, or toes touching marks, something different than the default?

 

 

5 hours ago, JAFO said:

I see those as where to start, not how to start. 

 

 

And yet, how many times have you seen competitors starting in angled, running start stance, hands in the "quick draw" position when the WSB said, "Starting outside shooting area, toes on Xs?"

 

I'm having a hard time thinking of a WSB that I've seen that would allow that start poosition.

Edited June 21, 2017 by nuidad
Added content, clarification

[JAFO]

When writing your own WSB, the best approach would be to either state where to start and let the default position reign, or be very specific as far as body position if you want to make specific modifications.  But allowing small tweaks to a non-default start position is really part of the "freestyle" aspect.  Say a WSB said, "Toes on X's, hands anywhere except touching the gun or a loading device."   Some people will hunch down and hover their hands an inch over the gun.  Others know that they have done thousands of draws standing upright hands at sides, and if they deviate from that, they are more likely to screw up their draw than make any gains.  But that's up to the shooter.

[bret]

1 minute ago, JAFO said:

When writing your own WSB, the best approach would be to either state where to start and let the default position reign, or be very specific as far as body position if you want to make specific modifications.  But allowing small tweaks to a non-default start position is really part of the "freestyle" aspect.  Say a WSB said, "Toes on X's, hands anywhere except touching the gun or a loading device."   Some people will hunch down and hover their hands an inch over the gun.  Others know that they have done thousands of draws standing upright hands at sides, and if they deviate from that, they are more likely to screw up their draw than make any gains.  But that's up to the shooter.

Touching a gun or a loading device is already prohibited in the rule book.

The simpler the WSB is the easier it is to enforce it, I get tired of Range Officers trying to enforce the intent of the WSB.

If the WSB says facing the wall with both hands on the wall and I touch the end of the wall and face the wall, I am complying with the WSB, a RO said that wasn't the intent.

Write what you mean and if it isn't concise, it will be gamed.

[JAFO]

Just now, bret said:

Touching a gun or a loading device is already prohibited in the rule book.

 

I know this.  You know this.  At some locals with non-certified shooters running squads, there's a chance someone won't know this.  I'd probably just say "hands anywhere in accordance with 8.2.3."  Maybe then they'll actually look it up and learn something. 

[nuidad]

I always thought something like  "Toes on Xs" was the triggering language for uncoupling the default start.   When the WSB says "hands on Xs," almost everyone turns toward the targets and gets in the ready-to-scoot position.  I've never considered hands on Xs to be only a "where to start instruction"...even though it does define the start location...just like Toes on Xs.  Have I been doing that wrong all this time?

 

What if "toes on Xs" puts you in a position that does not allow you to be facing downrange?

Edited June 21, 2017 by nuidad
Added question

[Southpaw]

I had that question a while ago about the whole "toes on Xs" thing and asked Troy about it.  This is what he said:  "Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off.  If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes.  He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo.  That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used."

 

So "toes on Xs" is enough to invalidate the default start position.  This always seemed a bit strange to me if toes on Xs points your feet downrange.  However, if toes on Xs points your feet towards a side berm then it makes sense that the default start position can't apply.  I don't know how what Troy said translates to a start position like 99-07 of "standing in box A".  I'd think the default start position does apply to this, but you could also argue that what's the difference between saying "standing in box A" and "toes on Xs" if toes on Xs points you downrange...

 

The default start position certainly doesn't apply to your initial question of 99-12 due to the different hand position specified.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Southpaw

[bret]

13 hours ago, Southpaw said:

I had that question a while ago about the whole "toes on Xs" thing and asked Troy about it.  This is what he said:  "Once the stage briefing specifies any other start position, then all bets are off.  If it specifies "toes on X marks", and nothing else, then the competitor can be turned however he wishes.  He cannot, of course, start touching his gun or ammo.  That's why it's important to write a concise but definitive start position into a stage if the default is not being used."

 

So "toes on Xs" is enough to invalidate the default start position.  This always seemed a bit strange to me if toes on Xs points your feet downrange.  However, if toes on Xs points your feet towards a side berm then it makes sense that the default start position can't apply.  I don't know how what Troy said translates to a start position like 99-07 of "standing in box A".  I'd think the default start position does apply to this, but you could also argue that what's the difference between saying "standing in box A" and "toes on Xs" if toes on Xs points you downrange...

 

The default start position certainly doesn't apply to your initial question of 99-12 due to the different hand position specified.

Troy makes up rulings that contradict the rule book, nothing new here.

Toes on X's defines where you start.

[Poppa Bear]

WSB language that says 'Default start position with toes on X's"  covers both location and position.  "Toes on X's"  allows any body position as long as the toes are on the X's.

[nuidad]

1 hour ago, bret said:

Troy makes up rulings that contradict the rule book, nothing new here.

Toes on X's defines where you start.

 

From A3:

 

Start position ....................The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the "Start signal".

Stance ..............................The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.).

Shooting position .............The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone).

Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire....

 

Why do we almost universally agree that "Hands on X's" defines how you start and deactivates the Default requirement, but many believe "Toes on X's" defines where you start and doesn't deactivate the Default?

 

Is it because A3-Stance doesn't say anything about the lower limbs (feet and legs)?  It does, however, say "e.g."

Edited June 22, 2017 by nuidad
Added content

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, bret said:

Troy makes up rulings that contradict the rule book, nothing new here.

Toes on X's defines where you start.

that particular ruling doesn't contradict the rulebook however. It clarifies things and keeps people with overactive imaginations from making up their own stuff. Troy (and southpaw) are 100% right imho. There are plenty of classifier wsb's that specifically say where to face, or centered on barricade, or whatever. If they leave that stuff out, it is intelligent to assume that was intentional.

[motosapiens]

59 minutes ago, nuidad said:

 

Why do we almost universally agree that "Hands on X's" defines how you start and deactivates the Default requirement, but many believe "Toes on X's" defines where you start and doesn't deactivate the Default?

 

 

If you agree with that, you are mistaken, and not paying attention to the guidance from DNROI. 'toes on x's' definitely deactivates the default. Just in case we get a know-it-all RO who is wrong, I go further in my stages and specify 'toes on x's, facing wherever the hell you want'

Edited June 22, 2017 by motosapiens

[nuidad]

24 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

If you agree with that, you are mistaken, and not paying attention to the guidance from DNROI. 'toes on x's' definitely deactivates the default. Just in case we get a know-it-all RO who is wrong, I go further in my stages and specify 'toes on x's, facing wherever the hell you want'

Moto, just for clarification, I totally agree with you and am surprised that there are "...many (who) believe "Toes on X's" defines where you start and doesn't deactivate the Default?

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by nuidad
clarification

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, nuidad said:

Moto, just for clarification I totally agree with you and am surprised that there are "...many (who) believe "Toes on X's" defines where you start and doesn't deactivate the Default?

 

 

Oh, got it. Yes, it's easy to see why people would get confused, or make up their own interpretation, but Troy's guidance is clear, so even if we don't agree with it, it puts everyone on the same page. Being consistent is more important than being 'right', although in this instance I think it's pretty unimportant either way. It's not any faster to be turned slightly towards targets.

[JAFO]

I stand corrected. 

[Sarge]

33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Troy's guidance is clear, so even if we don't agree with it, it puts everyone on the same page. 

How? If you are one of the tens of thousands of shooters/RO's that were not cc'ed on that email or do not live on these forums, you have no idea what Troy said.

[nuidad]

From A3:

 

Start position ....................The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the "Start signal".

Stance ..............................The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.).

Shooting position .............The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone).

Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire....

 

Hopefully you all will stay engaged with this thread because I want to discuss one other aspect of Start Position...the Shooting Position component.  My take on Shooting Position is that it is also a "how" component.  When the WSB only states, "Standing in Box A," it is usually interpreted as a "where" and, therefore, imposes the Default.  It's somewhat less clear when the WSB only states, "Sitting behind table," because the Default is, by definition, not applicable (since you can't be "...standing erect" if you are sitting.

 

JAFO's position on this issue (below) offers an approach to this dilemma but (respectfully) it may not be supportable and in harmony with the rules. 

 

"If a WSB requires sitting/lying down, facing another direction, or doing something else with arms or hands, then I use whatever is stated in the WSB and nothing more."

 

I think it is reasonable to consider the Shooting Position as a "how" since it does not define a Location (physical space) by any stretch of the imagination.

 

By considering both Shooting Position along with Stance as "Hows", the entire issue would be much easier to understand...Shooting Position and Stance deactivate the Default.  Only Location will activate the Default.  It may require some adjustment to the current practice but it would make things easier when RO-ing or Making Ready.

 

"Starting in Box A".....Default

"Standing in Box A".....No Default

Edited June 22, 2017 by nuidad

[bret]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

that particular ruling doesn't contradict the rulebook however. It clarifies things and keeps people with overactive imaginations from making up their own stuff. Troy (and southpaw) are 100% right imho. There are plenty of classifier wsb's that specifically say where to face, or centered on barricade, or whatever. If they leave that stuff out, it is intelligent to assume that was intentional.

there is no ruling on this.

[Southpaw]

I dunno, I got it in an email so I think it's pretty official 

 

Really I don't see the point in having a default start position. If you as stage designer care where the shooters put their hands, what direction they face, etc. then put that in the WSB...

[bret]

5 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

I dunno, I got it in an email so I think it's pretty official 

 

Really I don't see the point in having a default start position. If you as stage designer care where the shooters put their hands, what direction they face, etc. then put that in the WSB...

Where in the Rule Book or Bylaws does it say an email is official?

If Troy wants to rule on it, he needs to make a ruling, USPSA has a Rulebook and procedures for issuing rulings, USPSA and DNROI need to follow the rules just like everyone else does.

[nuidad]

8 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

I dunno, I got it in an email so I think it's pretty official 

 

Really I don't see the point in having a default start position. If you as stage designer care where the shooters put their hands, what direction they face, etc. then put that in the WSB...

The Default will be greatly diminished in importance and usage if Location only is the triggering mechanism for its application.  A WSB would have to read something like this...no more or no less...:

 

e.g.  "Starting in Box A"  or "Starting within shooting area."

 

I'm a big proponent of unrestricted, undefined...anyway/anywhere Starting Positions.  I'd like to see more WSBs look like this:  Starting Position:  None 

[nuidad]

9 minutes ago, bret said:

Where in the Rule Book or Bylaws does it say an email is official?

If Troy wants to rule on it, he needs to make a ruling, USPSA has a Rulebook and procedures for issuing rulings, USPSA and DNROI need to follow the rules just like everyone else does.

I think Troy was making a clarification...to help with the fairly common confusion with the whole Starting Position issue.  IMHO, the rules support Troy's position.  They are just unclear.

[bret]

Just now, nuidad said:

I think Troy was making a clarification...to help with the fairly common confusion with the whole Starting Position issue.  IMHO, the rules support Troy's position.  They are just unclear.

The clarification is just an opinion until a ruling has been made by DNROI.

 

[nuidad]

27 minutes ago, bret said:

The clarification is just an opinion until a ruling has been made by DNROI.

 

Absolutely.  We definitely could use some rulings and probably some re-writing of the rules to make this less onerous.  It's a terrible topic to discuss.  I usually get people nodding off and avoiding me if I start talking about it, but without a well-ingrained understanding of the applicable rules and a universal application of those rules, we'll have to deal with the disagreement and conflict.  I just hate being confronted by a differing interpretation during Make Ready.  Additionally, the entire Classification program comes under criticism when competitors are being started differently when shooting classifiers.  I'm sure that if everyone agreed with me I'd probably be a GM rather than a C .  I'm going to pick some brains when I take my CRO class at the end of July.