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Tunnels, low obstacles etc, stage design


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what are your thoughts about incorporating practical physical obstacles into stages from time to time? We don't see too much of it anymore, although the founder of the sport even has a type of tunnel named after him, and specifics about penalties in the rulebook......

 

I kinda think as long as there is a reasonable work-around for folks that don't feel like doing it, people shouldn't whine too much.

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I get grief every time I do something that involves bending or shooting under obstacles etc. I try to keep it to a minimum but you start to run low on ideas. I'm all for it because it's different and invokes new skills. 

 

Three gun it's open season and I'll break out everything i can. 

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No because it's typically the same group that complain I just care less about it because it's an outlaw match and not sanctioned. 

 

the group in question are a combination of fat and lazy and want to shoot standards stages. I prefer to use every inch of the range if I can. 

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Stage 5 of the Double Tap match this weekend has something they term, "Low Cooper Tunnel Must step over and in between Slats." It also states "Penalties........one procedural per Stick dislodge and touching ground evne if you knock a stick off and that stick knocks another stiff off. procedural for both. May not interfere in any way with the stick falling when dislodged." (sic)

 

To me it looks like a section of low hurdles blocking access to a needed port to shoot through. Knock the cross bar off and P for you. High knees boys, high knees.

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Just give options that are not to out of the way added 3-5 seconds.

the test is when setting up, can the young guys run the course within a second or two of going down to the tunnel or port etc.

Face it the young agile guys are going to be faster no matter the stage. So what does it accomplish to put a hurt on the older guys that usually do most of the work at clubs.

give them a 20-25 yd shot option verses the port etc.

We just did a copper tunnel last week there were options to get to every target without it killing the score of the people who had to do it.

Remember its a shooting sport not a track and field event

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10 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Stage 5 of the Double Tap match this weekend has something they term, "Low Cooper Tunnel Must step over and in between Slats." It also states "Penalties........one procedural per Stick dislodge and touching ground evne if you knock a stick off and that stick knocks another stiff off. procedural for both. May not interfere in any way with the stick falling when dislodged." (sic)

 

To me it looks like a section of low hurdles blocking access to a needed port to shoot through. Knock the cross bar off and P for you. High knees boys, high knees.

 

Guarantee that dude will be 12" tall, 16" max. Is loosing ~30 points worth saving 10+ seconds? Dunno.  But I'll watch how you shoot it this weekend to see how a semi-pro does it!

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10 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Stage 5 of the Double Tap match this weekend has something they term, "Low Cooper Tunnel Must step over and in between Slats." It also states "Penalties........one procedural per Stick dislodge and touching ground evne if you knock a stick off and that stick knocks another stiff off. procedural for both. May not interfere in any way with the stick falling when dislodged." (sic)

 

To me it looks like a section of low hurdles blocking access to a needed port to shoot through. Knock the cross bar off and P for you. High knees boys, high knees.

Hey Rowdy, does double tap get stage approval from HQ? I ask because those sticks sound what we called conrads sissy sticks around here. Basically fault lines that were elevated about a foot off the ground and if you knocked one off it was a procedural. After using them for years in the state match DNROI eventually ruled against them. The two seem very similar to me?

 He did approve land mines though. Clay pigeons spread around that get you a procedural if you step on one. :)

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9 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Hey Rowdy, does double tap get stage approval from HQ? I ask because those sticks sound what we called conrads sissy sticks around here. Basically fault lines that were elevated about a foot off the ground and if you knocked one off it was a procedural. After using them for years in the state match DNROI eventually ruled against them. The two seem very similar to me?

 He did approve land mines though. Clay pigeons spread around that get you a procedural if you step on one. :)

i have no idea about their stage approval. I'm just going because people say it's a fun match and it's within driving distance of the house. Might as well try it once.

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I dislike any barrier, obstacle or port that makes me lay on the ground or go to my knees.  The courses I shoot are covered with sharp rocks.  They are already designed for the young sprinters and require you cover a lot of ground.  I generally outshoot the youngsters on points, but my almost 70 year old legs don't mover as fast as theirs, so i lose time.  I'm perfectly fine with that, but I'd prefer not to go home bleeding from two or three places.

 

Note to club managers:  sharp screed may be a touch cheaper, but small river rock don't cut you up.

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Agree with moto and jcc that options should be given to accommodate those who are unable to overcome physical barriers/obstacles, otherwise we're saying to people like Trevor Baucom, "Thank you for your service, but maybe you should take up tennis or bowling." Sweet. Really sweet.

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2 hours ago, wmccurdy said:

Keep in mind that some of us are aging and not as flexible, nimble or competitive as we once were but still enjoy shooting in competition.

I enjoy having all types at matches, but as you said you are not competitive so what does it matter?

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Yep, the more people you want to include the less physical you can make it. When I build stages for club matches I don't do anything like that.

 

Butttttttt, if you're at the range with me and we're goofing off at the end of the day and I ask you to play PIG (like a shooting version of the basketball game HORSE) don't be surprised at some of the hard stuff I make up for the shot hahahaha. But that's goofing off, not building a stage for 30-70 strangers of unknown ability.

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4 hours ago, wmccurdy said:

Keep in mind that some of us are aging and not as flexible, nimble or competitive as we once were but still enjoy shooting in competition.

I get that. I'm 55 myself, but I don't ask them to lower the volleyball net because I can't jump as high anymore.

 

I'm still somewhat new to stage design, but one thing I like to do is provide alternatives, so you don't *have* to go prone, or go through the tunnel, but it's a bit longer movement, or longer harder shots if you don't.

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Pick the game appropriate for you. I'm 5'7 and 140lbs. You don't see me playing basketball or football in leagues where guys are serious because that's not what I'm built for and I know I'm at a physical disadvantage. So I pick other things I'm more naturally suited for. How much of USPSA should be suited to people with bad backs, knees, flexibility and so on?

 

The people with age or wear issues on their body would say 100% of it should be suited towards them, the fitter people with less wear and tear would probably say 5%. Everyone acts in their own self interest.

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2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Moto, what are "practical physical obstacles" in your definition? Everything I think of I'd do people would cry "it's too idpa" or "this isn't boot camp".

 

Last week i set a wall upright on 2 standard barrels, so you could go under the wall and immediately engage 3 targets while coming up, or you could go out of the shooting area and around and back in, adding a few yards to your movement. Some people (not me) could just crouch and go under the wall without touching the ground with anything except feet. I put a hand down. Some of the best local shooters went around.

 

I'd like to do a similar setup, but lay the wall flat, to create a barrel height tunnel where you could engage targets on either side while crouching, OR you could back up and shoot the targets from further away from the back of the shooting area, then run around to the front to engage the rest of the targets. 

 

I'd like to explore more such ideas that everyone can do, but it's slightly faster to do it the more physical way. I kinda like the idea of the slats, as long as they are not too high, or perhaps you just have a slightly longer work-around. I think that kind of stuff is about as practical as it gets in terms of combat or self-defense, but I don't want to gimmick it up to the point of silliness. Of course some people just want to stand and shoot and eat snacks. That's cool. that's why we have bullseye and IDPA and television.

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1 hour ago, zzt said:

I dislike any barrier, obstacle or port that makes me lay on the ground or go to my knees.  The courses I shoot are covered with sharp rocks.  

 

That is something I always try to keep in mind. I never want to *force* someone to do something like that, I just want to encourage it, and let people decide if it is worth it. Options are good.

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