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New member & 9mm powders


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Hi folks...

 

As I mentioned in my original intro post, I am a retired Army guy that is just now getting into competitive shooting. I am currently setting up my Dillon 650 to load 9MM. Because of my reliance on a VERY fixed income, I need to avoid a lot of indiscriminate buying and testing of components.... Here is where I am: Primers will be either Fiocchi or Winchester (because I can get them reasonably, and do not want to worry about "hard" CCI or "soft" Federal...). I am purchasing some of both for trial data.....  Bullets and cases will vary depending on what I can reasonably source. Right now I am buying some cases in 5000 lots (mixed head stamps..). Bullets will probably be Berry's or one of the other plated bullets for range practice. I plan to test and load a more "capable" jacketed bullet for match use. My intent is to try all three standard weight bullets, but will probably select 124 or 147 because of the recoil impulse.

 

So with that in mind... Here is my quandary. Powder..???  I don't want to buy (and WONT buy..) multiples of possible iterations just because they "might" work. So here is my criteria (admittedly, I am a little in the dark here...). I have selected six potential candidates to make 9mm MINOR floor. Those are: Unique; Silhouette; True Blue; Power Pistol; Win 231; and Universal. I also realize that there is a multitude of possibilities and an equal number of opinions..!!! What I would like to do is select THREE choices for testing. I am trying to avoid VhitaVuory powders because of the ridiculous pricing. I also do not favor powders that are "compressed loads" Sooo, a medium density powder that meters well (Dillon 650...) and makes the floor at a reasonable pressure. Truth told, I am also trending against Silhouette. There is a distinct lack of Silhouette data for 9mm published in manuals. However, I realize that there are some folks here who swear by it... and of course some who swear AT it as well.

 

So, if you folks could just recommend your three top choices and your reasoning. They don't have to be part of my six choices. I am open to being convinced...if you have a reasoned approach.

Here is a little Gen Info background. I am NOT a newbie to shooting (of any kind..) nor to reloading. My Dillon is 18 years old. I have more die sets than I can count. I started reloading with a single stage in 1969 for rifle calibers. My handgun loading experience is pretty light though... mostly hunting loads in big bore handguns (44 Mag. and 454 Casull..).

 

Please hold forth... You won't embarrass me or hurt my feelings.... Sorry this is so long... :-(

 

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Try E3.  I use Australian Clays - can't get anymore - and E3 has about the same characteristics but doesn't pressure spike as badly.

Also you don't mention what weight bullet you plan on using, I'd suggest you try one of the coated ones around 125 grains or so since you are going for minor power factor.

 

 

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Thanks for the information.... Bullet weight is still under consideration, but as I said in the OP, I am leaning toward the 124/125 or 147....just because of the recoil impulse. I am definitely going to shoot coated for my range loads. MAY switch to a fancier jacketed bullet for match use...

 

I will definitely look up the E3 and consider it.

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You don't need "fancier jacketed bullets" for 9mm Minor ...   And, I'd stay away from Berry's

and plated.

 

Stick with coated bullets and WW231 - great combo.

 

I've been using WW231 for 50 years - great underrated powder for 9mm Minor :) 

 

To save $$$, buy in BULK - 

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I use extreme 147 plated bullets over bullseye for 9mm minor loads. Runs clean, soft recoiling. I've loaded 20k+ rounds of this load and see no reason to change at this time. I have tried coated bullets but they don't feed well thru my bullet feeder.


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I use extreme 147 plated bullets over bullseye for 9mm minor loads. Runs clean, soft recoiling. I've loaded 20k+ rounds of this load and see no reason to change at this time. I have tried coated bullets but they don't feed well thru my bullet feeder.


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I run 147gr SNS coated round nose over 3.0gr of Titegroup.  The coated bullets are cheaper than plated and Titegroup is about the cheapest powder you can run per charge! 

 

I have no experience with a bullet feeder like the above comment.  So if you do have one, coated might not be the way to go.  But if that's not a concern, take a look at SNS bullets. 

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As the others have said, go with a coated bullet of some kind. Acme, SNS, Ibejiheds, Blacks, Bayous, Blue Bullets, and on make great bullets for really cheap.  The coated bullets on average will be $0.03-.05 cheaper per bullet.

 

Powders? I've tried 231, WST, Titegroup, e3, WSF, and a few others.  I really liked 231, Titegroup and e3 but in the end got a great deal on e3 and with ~5k trouble free rounds down range.  I'd recommend e3 or 231 or Alliant Sport Pistol which is supposed to mimic 231.

 

Where are you located? Might be a member nearby willing to help out a veteran. 

Edited by SCTaylor
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I've noticed there has been some interest here in Titegroup. Thanks to all who have mentioned it and the other powders as well. I visited with Titegroup and a lot of threads here on the forum. The general consensus is that Titegroup is fairly "dirty" and doesn't meter particularly well through Dillon measures (until it has "settled" for a while...???). I really hate to stop loading to reset measures... that is one of the reasons I am looking for a powder with a good density that meters well. Also, with coated bullets there is apparently a lot of smoke...??? True.???

 

I am still waiting for my Dillon parts for 9mm, so I will definitely evaluate Titegroup further....  BTW... If I am wrong here (anytime...), please speak up. Thanks..!!!

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4 hours ago, TeedOff said:

I use extreme 147 plated bullets over bullseye for 9mm minor loads. Runs clean, soft recoiling. I've loaded 20k+ rounds of this load and see no reason to change at this time. I have tried coated bullets but they don't feed well thru my bullet feeder.


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I understand what you are saying. I used a lot of Bullseye years ago for some early .38 loads when I was shooting PPC. Good powder, but density wasn't particularly good for metering and it is quite fast. Should be pretty low density loading. Right.??  

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5 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

You don't need "fancier jacketed bullets" for 9mm Minor ...   And, I'd stay away from Berry's

and plated.

 

Stick with coated bullets and WW231 - great combo.

 

I've been using WW231 for 50 years - great underrated powder for 9mm Minor :) 

 

To save $$$, buy in BULK - 

 

Okay... WW231 was definitely one of my front runners. Thanks for the input. Not certain why your aversion to plated bullets. Would you elaborate for me.?? And yes, I am definitely looking at coated bullets too. I DO want to avoid powders that burn hot and that generate a lot of smoke with coated....

Also... are you saying that a load with a good jacketed bullet is not worth the effort for use in matches.??

 

2 hours ago, SCTaylor said:

As the others have said, go with a coated bullet of some kind. Acme, SNS, Ibejiheds, Blacks, Bayous, Blue Bullets, and on make great bullets for really cheap.  The coated bullets on average will be $0.03-.05 cheaper per bullet.

 

Powders? I've tried 231, WST, Titegroup, e3, WSF, and a few others.  I really liked 231, Titegroup and e3 but in the end got a great deal on e3 and with ~5k trouble free rounds down range.  I'd recommend e3 or 231 or Alliant Sport Pistol which is supposed to mimic 231.

 

Where are you located? Might be a member nearby willing to help out a veteran. 

 

Thank you.... Another recommendation for coated bullets. Also... thank you for mentioning Sport Pistol. I had not considered that powder, but now I will. I looked it up and was surprised and sort of impressed I guess. Sounds like a modern interpretation of 231. with possibly improved density and metering. This in now one of my potential target powders. 

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If you want a do it all powder and a simple load, 231.

 

Load it up under coated 124s and call it good. Hard to beat that combination for versatility availability and price.

 

You can shoot 147s but there really isn't that much difference between them and 124s - if you're on a budget, that's the way to go.

 

(I personally prefer a variety of faster, softer powders like Prima V or E3 or Clay Dot, but they're not the "jack of all trades" you indicate you're after.)

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Titegroup is known to smoke with anything even some jacketed. How much smoke is highly dependent on the bullet selected and the end users "smoke rating".

 

As I mentioned, 231 was very consistent w/ 7fps standard deviation among the 3 charge weights I tried. If Power Pistol is equivalent to 231 then I have no qualms recommending the powder.  231 is nice too due to the wide range of calibers in which it works well.

Edited by SCTaylor
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Most people lean toward the faster powders for 9mm minor for the reduced recoil impulse.  The most common ones from that faster tier that people use for 9mm minor are:


AA2

700X

Bullseye

Titegroup
N320
W231/HP-38 (same powder)
Red Dot

WSF is probably the slowest commonly used or 9mm minor.

People also like N310, Clays and Ramshot Comp, but they don't typically make power factor inside SAAMI standard pressures according to most published load data.  

 

e3 is great powder with a loyal following, and the same for Prima V -- I've shot plenty of both in 9mm minor.  They're great.  But if you don't like how little published data there is for Silhouette, e3 will be a non-starter -- there is none.  It works great for 9mm minor, but it's not recommended for 9mm by Alliant.  There's no data.  There's a little data for Prima V 9mm, I think, but not necessarily usable.  I think everyone who uses Prima V has worked up loads off of everyone else using Prima V.


The slower powders you mentioned are great powders for 9mm, in general, and some people do use them for 9mm minor; it's just that most gravitate toward the faster powders in 9mm minor for the recoil advantage.


As to plated bullets... their advantages are that they are lead "safe" and that in quantities of 250, 500, or 1000, they're typically cheaper than jacketed bullets.  However, coated lead is equally lead "safe" and are cheaper than plated bullets, and when it comes to accuracy, coated lead is typically easier to extract accuracy from.  I have loaded bunches of different plated bullets.  I have found exactly one that I could get what I would consider excellent accuracy from, and two others where accuracy was acceptable.  The rest have been mediocre to bad.  Coated lead is the opposite.  There are plenty that I've been able to get excellent accuracy from, plenty more where accuracy was at least good, and only a few where accuracy was poor, and that seems to be gun specific, where those coated lead bullets that perform poorly in one pistol are excellent in another.

Coated lead is cheap, easy, and awesome. ;) 

Are jacketed worth it?  That's super subjective.  If you're buying in bulk, you can get jacketed prices for 124/125gr down into the 9-11 cents/bullet range.  But buying in bulk, you can get coated lead down into the 6-7 cents/bullet range.  That's around a 50% price increase for your most expensive component to buy jacketed.  And what advantage are you paying for?  I can get the same performance from coated as from jacketed.  The only advantage I see is that 124/125gr jacketed bullets are kind of stupid-proof.  They're going to be more forgiving of loading mistakes, and they're swaged, so you are less likely to run into bullets with voids or other invisible manufacturing problems.  I guess jacketed my provide a bit of a security blanket for important matches, but again, whether or not that's worth it is subjective.

As to bullet weight, if you like 147gr bullets because you love the feel, then by all means do it.  If you like the idea of 147 because you've read its softer recoil impulse is going to make you faster and improve your scores, go with 124/125. ;) 

Edited by IDescribe
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Ok, if you want to try E3, start with a 124 gr or so coated bullet and 3.2grs and check the velocity.  That should make minor, if not go up a little until you are around 130PF.  Then work on an accurate load.  Clays loading data is close enough for anything near minor PF.

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30 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

Most people lean toward the faster powders for 9mm minor for the reduced recoil impulse.  The most common ones from that faster tier that people use for 9mm minor are:


AA2

700X

Bullseye

Titegroup
N320
W231/HP-38 (same powder)
Red Dot

WSF is probably the slowest commonly used or 9mm minor.

People also like N310, Clays and Ramshot Comp, but they don't typically make power factor inside SAAMI standard pressures according to most published load data.  

 

e3 is great powder with a loyal following, and the same for Prima V -- I've shot plenty of both in 9mm minor.  They're great.  But if you don't like how little published data there is for Silhouette, e3 will be a non-starter -- there is none.  It works great for 9mm minor, but it's not recommended for 9mm by Alliant.  There's no data.  There's a little data for Prima V 9mm, I think, but not necessarily usable.  I think everyone who uses Prima V has worked up loads off of everyone else using Prima V.

 

i second everything in this post. I personally use prima V in 9mm and I like it better than anything else I have tried, and it's cheap. works great for 40 also. in my experience, it is identical to red dot but cleaner, cheaper and meters better.

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Another plug for 231. It just works, isn't too particular about bullet weight, and is adaptable through the most common non-open class USPSA cartridges (9mm, 40sw, 45acp). Buy it in 8 pound containers to save money and off you go. I'm not the most thorough tinkerer or greatest group shooter, but past experience has shown that the bullet will do more for accuracy than the powder in 9mm type cartridges. My guess is most people 'find' new powders during shortages when their long time favorite can no longer be found. Of course I could be wrong as they haven't covered this topic yet in climatology school. I started with Herco many moons ago, then Bulseye, Titegroup and then 231. Herco was because someone recommended it when I first started, Bulseye because I switched to 147s for suppressed usage,  Titegroup because I started USPSA and it was the newest latest greatest (didn't work for me at all). I wound up with 231 because I can grab any can of 9mm (or 45acp for that matter) plus whatever gun is tripping my trigger and everything works, goes bang, stays quiet, prints groups, doesn't get overly dirty, and just provides an overall enjoyable shooting experience. YMMV

 

Concerning bullet weight, I personally can't tell a difference between 124s and 147s, but I didn't stay at a holiday inn last night either. I generally load 147s as that weight works in all my platforms plus stays subsonic, which is a big deal for me, but not for any USPSA type reasons. If you do other types of shooting with 9mm that might be a consideration for you too. As to bullet type, no real difference for me between plated and jacketed. Since you mentioned Berrys, I have run thousands of those without issue, but for a little less money you might also consider Precision Delta FMJs. One final thought is that if you shoot indoors at all, most indoor ranges seem to require a plated or jacketed bullet. Have fun with your new adventure. Racing pistols is the bomb.

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I understand what you are saying. I used a lot of Bullseye years ago for some early .38 loads when I was shooting PPC. Good powder, but density wasn't particularly good for metering and it is quite fast. Should be pretty low density loading. Right.??  


The bullseye meters fine for me in the LNL...no problem at all. Not as dense as the autocomp I use for my 9 major open guns for sure, but the charge required for minor is small so density of the powder vs case volume is not a problem that I've noticed, if that's what you were asking.


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16 hours ago, rooster said:

Titegroup, cheap, available, accurate, and a lot of data.  WSF, same thing.

 

Yes to that.  Tightgroup and WSF or even WST.

 

Code "54730" at acmebullets.com to get 10% off.

 

using the code you can get down BELOW 6 cents per projectile.   3000 projectiles (115 gr coated) for $180 - 10%.

A new shooter really needs trigger time.  Lower the cost of a round to shoot more.

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With cost in mind I'll parrot what others have said.  Acme 115 grain coated bullets using the 10% code.  I haven't found a cheaper deal and their quality is as good as any and better than some.  Plated are a crap shoot accuracy wise, some guns like them others don't.  And they are more expensive and finicky to load.

 

I'm another fan of E3.  You can use Red Dot data backed off 10%, there's an email floating on the interwebs from Alliant stating this.  If you are set on reloading book data use 231 or my second favorite WST.  You can find WST data in older manuals if you dig.  Just load to make 132 PF and call it a day, don't try to take WST to +P pressures, it really doesn't like that, but with minor PF being under standard 9mm pressure it's perfectly safe.  It meters fantastic and is pretty economical.  And it smells good too.  :P

Edited by Shadowrider
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