Area 5 Arb

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, JusticeOfToren said:

 

28 minutes ago, shootingchef said:

As for a conversation on the clock, that is not wise on the part of the shooter, but if the RO says anything other than "stop" or "if" then it's interference.

 

Maybe you forgot about safety warnings.... But yeah, every experienced shooter should know the RO can't really answer questions during the COF.

 

Still, having not seen the video, if the shooter didn't actually run uprange and then stop because of the RO's, it's a hard sell to claim that's what he wanted to do.

[Nik Habicht]

On 6/6/2017 at 7:23 PM, alma said:

 

Sarge's account is not entirely accurate.

The second RO was way, way inside the fault lines and they were boxing him in. 

 

Two questions -- is downrange to the left of the picture?  In other words is the shooter in the left pic pointed toward the back berm in the pit?

 

And what's preventing the timer RO from taking three big steps to picture right?

 

 

[alma]

7 minutes ago, Nik Habicht said:

 

Two questions -- is downrange to the left of the picture?  In other words is the shooter in the left pic pointed toward the back berm in the pit?

 

And what's preventing the timer RO from taking three big steps to picture right?

 

 

Camera is facing down the range. There is a berm behind the timer RO. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by alma

[Nik Habicht]

Yikes.  In that case, we have some less than ideal stage design.  Were I on the time for that stage, I would want the score keeper well back of the "hallway entrance" and I might run the competitor from farther back -- assuming that the timer would pick up the shots.  Basically I'd ask the second RO to position himself well back, so I could exit, and so could the competitor -- with the second RO keeping eyes on the competitor in case that became necessary....

[alma]

Here is a better look at the alley:

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, alma said:

Here is a better look at the alley:

And note how far back the scoring RO actually is. He is basically at the end of the three walls and the shooter is now indexing on the turner that has not been activated. And I still saw the RO (s) get out of the way plenty fast when shooter finally decided to move back. This is an excellent example of why video is not allowed as evidence in uspsa.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Why did they both appear to crap their pants when the shooter turned around?

Actually, why was RO #2 in the hallway AT ALL?

Well, the timer has to get all shots in case he stops then and there so that RO needs to risk a foot race to make sure the stage is timed accurately. As for the other RO I don't think he was so far forward that he couldn't get out of the way. Crap their pants? You mean react when a shooter turns and starts towards them? seems like a normal reaction to me.

[alma]

11 minutes ago, Sarge said:

And note how far back the scoring RO actually is. He is basically at the end of the three walls and the shooter is now indexing on the turner that has not been activated. And I still saw the RO (s) get out of the way plenty fast when shooter finally decided to move back. This is an excellent example of why video is not allowed as evidence in uspsa.

That's not where he stopped. He ran right up to behind the shooter. For someone who insists he was there and saw this you sure remember the details wrong. Kind of gives light to how incorrect individual RO's or shooter's memory of what actually happened can be. This is exactly why video needs to be allowed. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by alma

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

This thread is basically teaching people they should run into the RO because we can't expect them to have any common sense.

 

As a CRO, I'd prefer not to get ran into, but if I'm in your way I guess I deserve it, based on the precedent set by this decision.

If you ask Mike foley what he would have done he will say exactly that. when he joined the discussion He talked about the two times he ran over RO's because they were in his way and got reshoots. His advice was clearly to not hesitate.

[Sarge]

Just now, alma said:

That's not where he stopped. He ran right up to behind the shooter. For someone who insists he was there and saw this you sure remember the details wrong. Kind of gives light to how incorrect individual RO or shooter versions of what actually happened can be tainted by perspective. This is exactly why video needs to be allowed. 

Did the shooter ask a question of the RO when he turned? Did the shooter not go back to the steel without getting ahead of the RO?

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, Sarge said:

If you ask Mike foley what he would have done he will say exactly that. when he joined the discussion He talked about the two times he ran over RO's because they were in his way and got reshoots. His advice was clearly to not hesitate.

 

Given the age of many major match RO's, I'd really like to not be responsible for someone breaking a hip and never getting out of bed again. Someone too slow to get out of the president's way is probably risking his health by even being upright that long...... heh heh.

 

But seriously, running over people is dumb and dangerous and a dick move. You should be able to get a legitimate reshoot without risking injury to yourself or someone else.  Plus, there's always the chance of something else going wrong. You run over the RO, smack your wrist or elbow on his knee, and let go of the gun. Hello dairy queen. I know the pres doesn't mind dq'ing, but he probably doesn't have to pay the match fee.

 

However...... back to this incident..... from the pix, it looks like the shooter had plenty of room. he should have run until he was forced to stop for safety reasons. Imho he should NOT have tried to injure a volunteer RO.

Edited June 8, 2017 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Given the age of many major match RO's, I'd really like to not be responsible for someone breaking a hip and never getting out of bed again. Someone too slow to get out of the president's way is probably risking his health by even being upright that long...... heh heh.

 

But seriously, running over people is dumb and dangerous and a dick move. You should be able to get a legitimate reshoot without risking injury to yourself or someone else.

 

However...... back to this incident..... from the pix, it looks like the shooter had plenty of room. he should have run until he was forced to stop for safety reasons. Imho he should NOT have tried to injure a volunteer RO.

Agreed on all counts. When I was asked what I thought, I stuck to the rule as written. I would have not said a word when he asked me a question. I would have done my best to outrun him if he took off uprange. If it was obvious I was going to get lapped I would have called stop. I would have "offered" a reshoot. 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Sarge said:

Agreed on all counts. When I was asked what I thought, I stuck to the rule as written. I would have not said a word when he asked me a question. I would have done my best to outrun him if he took off uprange. If it was obvious I was going to get lapped I would have called stop. I would have "offered" a reshoot. 

 

See, I knew you were a reasonable guy.

[alma]

18 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Agreed on all counts. When I was asked what I thought, I stuck to the rule as written. I would have not said a word when he asked me a question. I would have done my best to outrun him if he took off uprange. If it was obvious I was going to get lapped I would have called stop. I would have "offered" a reshoot. 

Watch this and tell me again about how these ROs gave him enough space, were expecting him to go back for the steel, could have outran him, or any of the other incorrect statements that you have made here thus far. 

He turned to run and then stopped when he saw the RO in his path. Obviously he and I the ROs were both phased by the encounter but even then the ROs didn't clear out right away. On the third try they actually got back far enough for him to get out of the that hallway. Bad stage design but it was certainly made worse by the second RO blocking the path and the first RO hanging to close when he should have known that's the shooter might be a coming back for the activator. 

[Sarge]

10 minutes ago, alma said:

Watch this and tell me again about how these ROs gave him enough space, were expecting him to go back for the steel, could have outran him, or any of the other incorrect statements that you have made here thus far. 

He turned to run and then stopped when he saw the RO in his path. Obviously he and I the ROs were both phased by the encounter but even then the ROs didn't clear out right away. On the third try they actually got back far enough for him to get out of the that hallway. Bad stage design but it was certainly made worse by the second RO blocking the path and the first RO hanging to close when he should have known that's the shooter might be a coming back for the activator. 

I see him stop and look back at targets, not stopping because they were in his way. They were well back when he finally decided to move again. They did in fact get out of his way. The second RO didn't block anybody. Why would the RO's clear out when he jumped, stopped, turned all the way around, etc? 

Edited June 8, 2017 by Sarge

[alma]

4 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I see him stop and look back at targets, not stopping because they were in his way.

He turned to run but had no where to go. It looks to take him a second to collect himself and figure out what to do then since his recovery recovery plan hit a literal road block. 

[JusticeOfToren]

If you know Mason, you would know he will NOT injure anyone even if that means he has to lose a match.  He is just a very nice young man.

 

From the video, I interpret his initial hesitation as looking for another way, maybe from further downrange, to get back to shoot the popper after seeing the ROs blocking him.  Seeing no other way, he has to run back up range.  I am surprised that the ROs did not back off and even after he has turned initially.   I guess it's all decisions on split second - ROs don't want to lose the timer, and Mason was trying to find the best way to go back. 

[waktasz]

So again, what we have learned is that it's better to create an unsafe situation by running over the RO than to let common sense win.

 

I have also learned that I'm glad I don't live or shoot in Ohio, because Sarge is terrible.

[mach1soldier]

On that stage, if he had asked for a reshoot instead of calibration, he would have got it from the arbitration committee. 

 

 

[drewbeck]

What I see is a guy paused by his gut saying stop..... running back towards those two guys is dangerous and unsafe....wait that's the only way I can go to finish.... they should move....check gun, ok move.

If the RO's wouldn't have been there, I would almost guarantee he wouldn't have stopped or hesitated in his retreat. We work hard to shoot stages subconsciously, the RO should be very conscious and thinking during the stage. To me him stopping to not put people in harms way, regardless of the first thing out of his mouth is the time the RO's need to man up and acknowledge the cluster F for the situation it is and tell him to stop.

Will the shooter shoot it better on a reshoot, maybe or maybe not, but to me on an interference call like this, the shooter should get the benefit of the doubt, and the RO's should be respected for being fair in giving it to him.


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[Kraj]

If you have the whole video throw up the link. 

 

This is a perfect example of why video isn't allowed to make calls. 

 

Your telling me that the ros working the stage didn't feel a reshoot for interference was necessary, the shooter didn't think it was necessary  (if he did why did he ask for calibration), but we can look a choppy video and without a doubt know what the shooter was thinking? 

[Sarge]

8 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

I have also learned that I'm glad I don't live or shoot in Ohio

Finally, we agree on something!

[Maximis228]

9 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

I have also learned that I'm glad I don't live or shoot in Ohio

29 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Finally, we agree on something!

 

Sounds pretty Us Vs Them.

[Sarge]

6 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

 

 

Sounds pretty Us Vs Them.

It sure does.

[Maximis228]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

It sure does.

 

You know that's a 2 way street, right?