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Repairing Targets Before Shooter Sees Them


GBertolet

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As a shooter I was involved with a controversy. While shooting a large stage, targets behind me were being scored as I shot. When I got to the end of the COF, and the range was declared safe, I was notified by the person with the nook, I had a miss on the other side of the range. I asked to see the target, but was told it was already taped. I was quite upset. I vented for a bit, but let it go. Ultimately It made no difference in the final standings anyway. I likely did have a miss, but the targets were full of masking tape patches, with ends peeling, which are often semi-self sealing of hits. One could have been there, maybe the scorer did not carefully look. No opportunity for me either. Also no opportunity to request an overlay on the existing hit. Taping before scoring is a reshoot, but although I did not request a reshoot, but by the rules, would I have been entitled to one in this instance?

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In my experience the RO will generally announce that they will be scoring in this manner and let shooters know that they need to appoint a proxy to check their targets during the scoring process and before they're pasted. That being said, I NEVER paste a target with a penalty without getting the shooters attention first.

 

 

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Yeah this is where you have to rely on hopefully having good/experienced squad mates like seadog_99 that will look out for you. I won't touch anything that is a penalty, mike or looks like it could use an overlay until the shooter has had a chance to look at it. 

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9 hours ago, seadog_99 said:

In my experience the RO will generally announce that they will be scoring in this manner and let shooters know that they need to appoint a proxy to check their targets during the scoring process and before they're pasted. That being said, I NEVER paste a target with a penalty without getting the shooters attention first.

 

 

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this, although in the many times i have done this i don't recall anyone every using a proxy 

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This was a local monthly match, so those two rules were not followed. The stage was managed by the squad, with some new shooters helping tape and set steel, so mistakes will be made. At a major match, the scoring procedures would be announced at walkthrough, by the dedicated staff. Considering the circumstances, I got over this event in a couple of minutes, and moved on. I guess my real question is, to those that this has happened to at a local match, how was this type of issue resolved in your case?

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12 minutes ago, GBertolet said:

 I guess my real question is, to those that this has happened to at a local match, how was this type of issue resolved in your case?

 

Step 1, put on big boy pants and stop whining. If you don't win the $10,000 prize for first place in your class at a local match, maybe you'll win it next time.

Step 2, politely educate your squadmates to not be jackasses, and to not tape targets with misses or penalties before the shooter gets to see them.

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26 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Step 1, put on big boy pants and stop whining. If you don't win the $10,000 prize for first place in your class at a local match, maybe you'll win it next time.

Step 2, politely educate your squadmates to not be jackasses, and to not tape targets with misses or penalties before the shooter gets to see them.

I've shot with Gary and don't know him to be a whiner or complainer.

I don't know him to miss much either.

Step 2 is where it's at. As an RO I like to let the shooter see any Mikes he or she may have on the stage but in the interests of time we do oftentimes tape up the hits before the shooter has had a chance to see them at our local matches.

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Thank you David72 for your kind defense. This incident was over and done with two minutes after it happened. This is a discussion forum, the issue was simply raised for civil discussion by others, who found themselves in a similar situation. No other agenda intended. Put the long knives away.

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Sorry for any offense, I'm sure you are a very nice guy. I was just busting your balls a little because you mentioned 'venting' and being 'quite upset' over a pretty minor thing that happened at a local match. IMHO it's mostly an opportunity to educate your squadmates on etiquette.

 

Only time I was in such a situation was at 2012 nationals, and someone's squadmate taped a target with a miss. We weren't scoring early however, and the shooter was not making any effort to follow the RO around. He vented and got quite upset and wanted a reshoot. RM said bummer, but no grounds for a re-shoot.

 

I've seen it happen sometimes at locals too, but no one gets quite upset. We just educate the newbs to not do it anymore.

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3 hours ago, GBertolet said:

This was a local monthly match, so those two rules were not followed.  ....

 

Please stop right there and read the following from Troy:

 

Rules at all levels

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USPSA
I was recently asked a question, couched in an actual event at a local match, regarding rules application. Seems that a competitor was disqualified for an action that the rules specifically state is not a DQ. What really bothered me about the question was the person that posed it followed up with, "Oh, well, it was just a local match, anyway." My response was somewhat less than cordial.

Local match or no, the rules are the rules for the sport, and must be followed. Not following our rules is the biggest disservice to your competitors, your customers, possible. USPSA matches around the country can be compared to a pyramid: lots of local matches on the bottom, supporting the larger (State/section, Area, Nationals) blocks on top. If the bottom blocks are weak in any way, the structure is unstable. Following the rules at your local match is the best way to ensure a strong foundation for our sport. The rules are easy to find, and help is but an email or phone call away. Let's all try to do it right.

Troy McManus, DNROI

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6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Sorry for any offense, I'm sure you are a very nice guy. I was just busting your balls a little because you mentioned 'venting' and being 'quite upset' over a pretty minor thing that happened at a local match. IMHO it's mostly an opportunity to educate your squadmates on etiquette.

 

Only time I was in such a situation was at 2012 nationals, and someone's squadmate taped a target with a miss. We weren't scoring early however, and the shooter was not making any effort to follow the RO around. He vented and got quite upset and wanted a reshoot. RM said bummer, but no grounds for a re-shoot.

 

I've seen it happen sometimes at locals too, but no one gets quite upset. We just educate the newbs to not do it anymore.

After the target has been scored, paste them up, if you want to see your hits, follow the R.O. or ask the squad not to past a target with a Mike on it until you have a chance to look at it.

No rule says the shooter has to see their target before it has been pasted.

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After the target has been scored, paste them up, if you want to see your hits, follow the R.O. or ask the squad not to past a target with a Mike on it until you have a chance to look at it.

No rule says the shooter has to see their target before it has been pasted.


Most shooters won't paste a target with a penalty before getting a shooter's attention out of courtesy, not because it's a rule violation.


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My policy if I'm scoring on the tablet and working behind the shooter is that I don't make the final determination on any targets with penalties, misses or close scoring calls.  I leave those for the RO to make the call on.

 

If I am pasting, it is the same.  At the clubs that I shoot at it is somewhat customary for the pasters to paste a few targets and call out the scoring when the scoring person comes around.  Speeds up the resetting process and is especially effective on a big course with alot of different areas that the RO would have to go to.

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Last week in Oregon State on my stage we were scoring one of the targets (a zebra in the middle of the stage) whole the shooter was still finishing. If someone had a penalty what score keeper would tell them that allow them to go look at it, and I can't think of a person who didn't get to see it if they wanted to.

That being said, if you know that they're scoring behind the shooter just ask someone to look at the targets they're scoring while you finish up. It's not hard to do and everyone will always say yes.

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In Barry on the hill, there was at least one Nationals where 3 or 4 ROs would call target scores out -- they'd divided the stage into zones.  Our squad called out the shooting order, and one paster per zone.  The paster confirmed that the RO made a correct call, or appealed the score called, if he disagreed.  It was not a big deal -- since the stage crew was nice enough to tell us during walkthrough how they would be scoring....

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Folks ... Please read section 9.6.  It deals with scoring and VERIFICATION.  If a shooter (or his deligate) is not given the opportunity to observe the targets AS THEY ARE BEING SCORED, how in the heck are they going to have the ability to challenge the score, as is their right?

 

I have seen this happen in matches from local clubs, through Area Championships, to the Nationals, and even at the World Shoot.  A shooter who has not been given an opportunity to review his hits as they are being scored can insist on a reshoot and, generally speaking, it must be granted.

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Unless the squad wasn't told that scoring would be happening while the shooter is still running the stage, I'm not sure I agree that a reshoot must be granted.  9.6.2 requires the squad be made aware of such scoring practices, and authorizes the use of a delegate.  So if you weren't told, then yes, reshoot for a questionable call unable to be verified.  But if you are told, 9.6.3 puts the verification responsibility on the shooter or delegate.  If you are made aware that scoring will happen while you are still on the clock and you don't ask a squadmate to verify for you (or they don't do it for some reason), then you were given the opportunity but didn't take it.

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54 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Unless the squad wasn't told that scoring would be happening while the shooter is still running the stage, I'm not sure I agree that a reshoot must be granted.  9.6.2 requires the squad be made aware of such scoring practices, and authorizes the use of a delegate.  So if you weren't told, then yes, reshoot for a questionable call unable to be verified.  But if you are told, 9.6.3 puts the verification responsibility on the shooter or delegate.  If you are made aware that scoring will happen while you are still on the clock and you don't ask a squadmate to verify for you (or they don't do it for some reason), then you were given the opportunity but didn't take it.

 

100% concur ...

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13 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Folks ... Please read section 9.6.  It deals with scoring and VERIFICATION.  If a shooter (or his deligate) is not given the opportunity to observe the targets AS THEY ARE BEING SCORED, how in the heck are they going to have the ability to challenge the score, as is their right?

 

I have seen this happen in matches from local clubs, through Area Championships, to the Nationals, and even at the World Shoot.  A shooter who has not been given an opportunity to review his hits as they are being scored can insist on a reshoot and, generally speaking, it must be granted.

If a target is scored and a shooter did not see it, and a squad mate taped the target, what is the basis for a re-shoot?

not talking about split scoring or scoring while the shooter is still shooting.

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2 hours ago, bret said:

not talking about split scoring or scoring while the shooter is still shooting.

 

but that's what the thread is about.

 

it's not about the 'shooter did not see it', it's about the shooter not having the *opportunity* to see it, because targets were scored and taped while the shooter was still shooting. 2 very different situations, and both are imho pretty well covered by the rules.

Edited by motosapiens
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