Which primers will it pop>?

[johnbu]

When I let people fondle my Stock 2's they are impressed by the DA smoothness and lightness... but... some are skeptical that it will pop anything but federal match primers. (Which i don't run, except for my match day ammo).   The gun is fairly well polished internally, sports a bolo, 15.5# hammer spring, PD sear, trigger and FP return spring, lighter  guide rod, titan hammer, 1 piece sear, extended FPB and a factory firing pin.  DA is somewhere between 5# 4oz and 5# 8 oz.  depending on how clean, lubed , etc.

 

I normally run Winchester SPP, but also have a stash of S&B and Wolf bought in bulk as a Hillary Hedge.  I use them primarily for the SAO Match gun, but have been messing with the reloading process to use them in the rest of the Tanfo fleet.  So, loaded up 500 of each with a new company "slugfest" coated 125gr bullets with the latest and greatest reloading methods. The "big thing" to do to make them work is more lanoline based lube everywhere ( more than for other primers).  The diameter control is apparently ever so slightly different with them and some just don't seat fully if not lubed liberally and a firm primer seating stroke used.  The best target depth range is 0.005 to 0.008" deep with the ideal at 0.006".  Oh, if you try to go deeper (especially with the wolf) the primers are crushed and will not pop.  Learned that the hard way!

 

So far, have run about 200 rounds of each primer and 100 of each in DA all with 100% bang.   The only issue has been with one 500 round box of bullets.  about 15% of them are too small diameter and tumble giving a keyhole at 18-20 yards.   I bought 7 boxes of 500 from "Slugfest"  and the first box was perfect.  Every bullet measured 0.3555 to 0.3560.  I didn't measure the second box... until I started getting keyholes!  Then pulled some down and found most at .356 with about 15% at 0.353-4.  The ones at .354 mostly stabilize, but the ones at 0.353 keyhole.  Oh, i barely crimp and have not adjusted the crimp die and no other manufacturers bullets have EVER tumbled.  I measured a sample from the other boxes and every one has been spot on.  I suspect that some were double sized resulting in too small of a diameter.  They are a new supplier in california-stan and worth a trial.  I'm sure they will get the bugs out of their processing pretty quick.  I will use the small ones for practice anyway. 

 

I also ran a double handful of CCI primed reloads and  a couple boxes of Blazer Brass with cci primers.  Those all went bang too. 

 

So, if there is a question on "light strikes", odds are overwhelming that the base issue is with primer seating depth. 

 

 

This is my primer seating depth summary:

 

High is "death".  Never run high primers. 

Flush is ok with easy brands like Federal Match even with crazy weak hammer springs.

Below flush is fine with Winchester at any non-crushing depth. Even with 12# hammer springs (and a decent polish)

"Hard" brands like Wolf, CCI, S&B need to be at 0.005-0.008" deep. Even with strong 14 and 15.5# hammer springs.

Going too deep, crushes the primers and is worse than not deep enough because they will NEVER pop!

 

[SoCalShooter69]

99.998% of light strikes cam be attributed to poorly seated primers. Although it is easy to blame parts, the fact of the matter is - you need to run your primers deep.

 

Another problem is, unless you're running a 1050, you are better of with a (*GASP*) Lee Loadmaster, as those are the only two machines that can control depth.

 

Excellent post, John. Very well explained. This should be a sticky. 

[Steve RA]

Or you can prime by hand primer, works perfectly and will also build up your wrist and hand strength.

[MikieM]

My failure to light off primers stopped (knock on wood) after I adjusted my S1050 to seat primers to .005 below flush. 

I generally use Winchester SSPs for the Stock II ammo, but CCIs haven't been a problem either. 

High primers=high anxiety. Good post. 

[johnbu]

7 hours ago, Steve RA said:

Or you can prime by hand primer, works perfectly and will also build up your wrist and hand strength.

 

 

Who needs  a grip strengthening trainer, eh? Just hand seat all your primers ! 

 

 

[Steve RA]

A lot of people's reloading practices depend on the amount of free time they have.  I've got a lot so I just do everything in large batches which works well for me.  Someone with little time might want a motorized 1050.

[johnbu]

Heck, I have time and want one too  ! But the CFO says i was lucky to get the loadmaster. 

 

Oh well,  i can still load more than i shoot, they go bang, all is good.

[Nathanb]

So just how deep is everyone getting their primers? I'm seating primers on my 650 at about .020 on average. I do need to check and make sure I'm not hallucinating that though. These are federal primers. 

[Steve RA]

Yes, think I'd check the depth again.

[MissionaryMike]

1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

So just how deep is everyone getting their primers? I'm seating primers on my 650 at about .020 on average. I do need to check and make sure I'm not hallucinating that though. These are federal primers. 

 

I end up seating my primers on my 650 to a median range of .075-.090".  Occasionally, slightly deeper or shallower.  

Edited June 5, 2017 by MissionaryMike

[johnbu]

I think you mean 0.0075 - 0.009"

 

Yes?

[MemphisMechanic]

5 hours ago, MissionaryMike said:

 

I end up seating my primers on my 650 to a median range of .075-.090".  Occasionally, slightly deeper or shallower.  

 

What brand of primer are you using? With a 650 I find that the non-adjustable priming system simply won't seat a CCI any deeper than .002" to .003" below flush in many brands of mixed brass.

 

Consequently, I run a lot of hammer spring and don't worry about the gun going click on anything below flush or with factory ammo.

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[MissionaryMike]

3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

What brand of primer are you using? With a 650 I find that the non-adjustable priming system simply won't seat a CCI any deeper than .002" to .003" below flush in many brands of mixed brass.

 

Consequently, I run a lot of hammer spring and don't worry about the gun going click on anything below flush or with factory ammo.

 

 

Federals. 

[MissionaryMike]

@MemphisMechanic I remember reading about the modification people like you made on the 650.  I tried it, and had the same result as you, which was not much of a difference. but I was really trying to see if my primers to an extreme depth. My goal was .010+.  But I think my seating depth is sufficient. I'm not sure at what depth other brand primers would seat at on my particular press.  

[MemphisMechanic]

My 650 seats both Federal and Winchester with a shim under the primer ram to .005-.008" below flush without abnormal operation - I'm making sure to drive the primer home but I'm not exactly hanging off the handle and bouncing. It will set either brand off 100% of the time with a 13lb PD spring.

 

With CCI's many are barely below flush and the deepest it'll cram those little bricks into the brass is .005" or so. I need the 16.5lb EGD Medium spring to set these off consistently because they're so hard and they aren't buried all the way into the brass.

 

(The PD 15.5lb spring might work too, but I haven't shot the gun with it enough to say for sure.)

Edited June 5, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[Sarge]

13 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

My 650 seats both Federal and Winchester with a shim under the primer ram to .005-.008" below flush without abnormal operation - I'm making sure to drive the primer home but I'm not exactly hanging off the handle and bouncing. It will set either brand off 100% of the time with a 13lb PD spring.

 

With CCI's many are barely below flush and the deepest it'll cram those little bricks into the brass is .005" or so. I need the 16.5lb EGD Medium spring to set these off consistently because they're so hard and they aren't buried all the way into the brass.

 

(The PD 15.5lb spring might work too, but I haven't shot the gun with it enough to say for sure.)

CCI's are taller. I noticed 100 CCI fill a primer tube more than other brands.

[MemphisMechanic]

That is a variable we hadn't considered...

[Nathanb]

Yeah makes me want to mic my primers when I get home. 

I've got fed win and wolf available in small pistol. 

[SoCalShooter69]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

CCI's are taller. I noticed 100 CCI fill a primer tube more than other brands.

 

Damn, that's a good point... hmmmmn.

[Sarge]

I just did a quick check. While you can see the difference it's not a lot but plenty to account for the ability to seat deeper.

 

measuring from the end of tube down to primer contact it's .2375 to CCI and .2405 to federal

[Nathanb]

And there is a .003 difference in seating depth. Now the question is can you even say they aren't seated as deep with that info now

[MikieM]

Sarge, is right. The CCIs are taller than the Winchesters. I can't say anything about Federal primers because I don't have any.

The CCIs measured .121 inches. The Winchesters were .115. A difference of .006. This alone could account for misfires.

Reloading with the S1050 presents no problems because we can adjust seating depth.

Edited June 5, 2017 by MikieM

[Nathanb]

I'll hit the federal s when I get home 

[MikieM]

I just edited my post because something didn't look right.

If CCIs are taller by .006, then the primer's anvil is .006 closer to the bottom of the primer pocket. Correct?

If that is so then wouldn't the CCI have a better chance of detonating than the Winchester primer which is .006 inches further away?

This is based on the presumption that the primer pin stops at the same place each time on a non-adjustable press.  

Edited June 5, 2017 by MikieM

[Steve RA]

A lot would depend on how far the anvil in the primer is from the open end of the primer, or from the other end, how far it is from the closed end of the primer.

 

Basically, if you seat the primer so the open end is touching the bottom of the primer cup in the case itself you should then have no problem with ignition.