Shooting Major PF in Production

[ErikSS]

I understand that production is all scored as minor regardless of caliber and power factor.  I have an M&P40 Pro in 40 cal, bought it before I started shooting matches and now I'm wondering how big of a disadvantage this is in USPSA.  I've shot some steel matches and one USPSA classifier which is yet to be posted, but from my scoresheet I'm probably a "C almost B" shooter based on the results.  So, is it worth going to a 9mm?  I know that it's possible to load minor PF in 40, but that means I need to get into reloading now, or purchase minor 40 ammo which is pretty pricey compared to what I'm currently shooting (Winchester WB 165Gr which is advertised as 1060 FPS or around 175PF out of a 4" barrel).  I do have an XD9 Tactical 5" which I shoot pretty well, but the M&P is way more comfortable in my hand, and I would like to practice and compete with with a platform that I can stay with for a few years.  Any thoughts?  Stay with the 40?  Move to 9mm?  Thanks for the input!

[GrumpyOne]

Buy a couple of 140 mags and shoot limited...or keep your mags and shoot limited 10. Yes, it is an advantage to shoot minor ammo in Production.

[Edmooberry]

I'm with Grumpy on this one. 

Now let me ask, is there any reason you want to stay within production?  If production is your thing, then yes you should probably look towards getting a 9mm M&P.  If you just shot production because you're starting out and not exactly sure what to shoot, then give limited a try!  You can buy 2 or 3 magazine extensions to get your factory mags out to 140mm and then drop in an APEX FSS trigger and roll with it!

 

Magwells, sights, springs, etc. can all come at a later date if you want to stick with limited. 

[TrackCage]

I have a couple shooting buddies who bumped to L10 just because they are shooting 40. Their guns are otherwise production legal and they don't want to reload 40 minor. 

 

I don't necessarily agree with shooting a stock gun in Lim/L10, but I get it. At that point, might as well add some of the other popular Limited features to make it worth it

[MikeBurgess]

Even in limited the gun (as long as it runs) IS such a minor part of your performance it's comical. If you like shooting factory 40 go limited and don't believe anyone that tells you your gun is holding you back.

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[motosapiens]

i'm not made of money, so i started reloading the second I bought a 40. that gun is a pretty sweet shooter at minor pf.

 

generally factory 40 ammo is a disadvantage, period.

[ErikSS]

Thanks for all the replies.  My assumption is that since I'm new to USPSA then I should start in Production and work my way into more challenging divisions once I progress.  If that's not the way to go then yeah, Limited 10 is the logical division for the gun I'm shooting.

[SCTaylor]

Production isn't a beginners division that's for sure. It is essentially the cheapest to buy competitive gear though.  What keeps me there is the level of local competition, ease of gun maintenance, and cheap ammo.

[Beef15]

Suggest you get a couple mag extensions and shoot limited.

I ran my M&P in 40 there just to see how it was. Classified a couple % higher than I had shooting my 9 in production.

So as a sample of one, I say your skill will land you very close to the same place in either division with relatively appropriate equipment, though I do think shooting major PF in production is a disadvantage.

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[GrumpyOne]

3 hours ago, ErikSS said:

Thanks for all the replies.  My assumption is that since I'm new to USPSA then I should start in Production and work my way into more challenging divisions once I progress.  If that's not the way to go then yeah, Limited 10 is the logical division for the gun I'm shooting.

Limited 10, you already have all the gear you need. Limited, you just need some mag extensions. If you aren't reloading, and shooting mj pf ammo in Production,  then you are leaving points out there.

 

Production is not the "newbie" division... they all are, if you have the gear to shoot them.

[GrumpyOne]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i'm not made of money, so i started reloading the second I bought a 40. that gun is a pretty sweet shooter at minor pf.

 

generally factory 40 ammo is a disadvantage, period.

Agree on both points. I started with a 40 in Production,  but I had been reloading for quite some time. I still believe that you can load 40 down to where it is softer shooting than a 9mm...but, the reason I went to 9mm was cost...40 just cost more to shoot than 9mm.

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, ErikSS said:

 since I'm new to USPSA then I should start in Production and work my way into more challenging divisions

 

Production is arguable the most difficult to shoot -

 

Lots of reloads - lots to think about.

 

Open or Limited is really easy - you see it, you shoot it - heck, even I can do that  

[kneelingatlas]

5 hours ago, ErikSS said:

Thanks for all the replies.  My assumption is that since I'm new to USPSA then I should start in Production and work my way into more challenging divisions once I progress.  If that's not the way to go then yeah, Limited 10 is the logical division for the gun I'm shooting.

 

This is a common sentiment I don't agree with, Production may be the cheapest division to get into, but it's not the easiest by any stretch of the imagination.  With 2-3 reloads per stage, iron sights, no magwell, limited modifications, least racey holsters, I'd call it one of the harder divisions, and very competitive in most areas.

 

Open guns are the easiest to shoot although there are many barriers to entry including the cost, the fact that handloading is almost a requirement, and the cultural perception that new shooters have to cut their teeth shooting 'lesser' divisions before graduating to the 'big leagues'.  If you're interested in a race gun I highly recommend trying Open right out of the gate.  The dot helps you call your shots.

[rowdyb]

Shooting the wrong pf ammo for your division is at least a 10% handicap to your scoring.

[motosapiens]

48 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Shooting the wrong pf ammo for your division is at least a 10% handicap to your scoring.

How did you calculate that? 10% seems high to me. I would think more like 3-6%, but of course it will vary based on skill and experience and preferences.

 

I shoot steel challenge almost every week during the warm season, and my fastest times are with 45 major. Admittedly that's only 1 shot per target, but the difference in splits is only a couple hundredths for me on close targets, and no difference on 15-25 yard targets.

[Hi-Power Jack]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 10% seems high to me. I would think more like 3-6%, but it will vary based on  skill.

 

Tough to quantify (6% vs 10% is small difference).

 

And, it Does Depend on Skill Level   

[RJH]

Buy a press and reload

[ErikSS]

Thanks again for all the replies.  I think Limited-10 (I'm in NJ) is the way to go for me right now.  I already did some basic trigger mods (ApexCompetition kit) on my M&P 40, so it's basically add a magwell and I'm good to go for now.  I have a ways to go on skills before my ammunition will be the deciding factor in my performance or seriously holding me back, so though reloading is in my future, not right now.  This is probably topic for another post, but any suggestions on factory ammo for a 40?  I've used PMC 165gr which is 989 FPS out of a 4" barrel according to the manufacturer, out of my 5" barrel I expect I could squeak by on PF.  I've also shot Winchester and Federal 165gr which are spec'd at 1050 fps (~175PF) , and a few factory 180gr loads which are all around 970 fps advertised ~175 PF.   Again, thanks for all the good advice.

[chirpy]

Before you do anything, make 100% sure your ammo is making major pf !  Advertised velocity is from a pressure barrel usually and may not make pf in your pistol.  Also make sure you crono out of your pistol not a buddies of the same make and model because they are different.

 

FWIW

 

Richard

[rowdyb]

On 6/2/2017 at 10:28 PM, motosapiens said:

How did you calculate that? 10% seems high to me. I would think more like 3-6%, but of course it will vary based on skill and experience and preferences.

 

I shoot steel challenge almost every week during the warm season, and my fastest times are with 45 major. Admittedly that's only 1 shot per target, but the difference in splits is only a couple hundredths for me on close targets, and no difference on 15-25 yard targets.

i didn't calculate it, but heard it from multiple people in the game i respect when i asked a similar question early on.

[ErikSS]

There was an article a few years ago compiled by Jeff Maass that chrono'd some factory ammo.  http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl40sw.pdf .  PMC 165gr was chrono'd at 1026 for a 173 PF, but I take your point, I won't know until I test it in my gun.  Problem is that I only have access to an indoor range, making setup a problem since I would need to put the chrono out a few yards into one of the lanes, and then there's the bit that I don't have a chrono yet.  ;-)  I suppose I could run the PMC and if it gets tested by the RO and comes up short then at least I know the PF out of my gun and I have to get scored minor for one match.

[mjmagee67]

I guess I'm shooting Major Production, at the Golden Bullet my ammo chrono'ed out to 138 PF!!! I guess I need to re-do my load.

[kneelingatlas]

19 minutes ago, mjmagee67 said:

I guess I'm shooting Major Production, at the Golden Bullet my ammo chrono'ed out to 138 PF!!! I guess I need to re-do my load.

 

[R1_Demon]

On 6/2/2017 at 7:18 PM, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Production is arguable the most difficult to shoot -

 

Lots of reloads - lots to think about.

 

Open or Limited is really easy - you see it, you shoot it - heck, even I can do that  

 

I would agree with Jack.  I just started shooting USPSA and I also thought of going into Production initially with an XD 4" 9mm Mod .2.  However, it was suggested to me by several of the local competitors to NOT go into Production first because there was way too much to think about and do (mag changes, etc.) because of limitations.  They actually suggested that I go into Limited, load up my mags as much as I can and concentrate on my movements and shooting initially until I get the hang of everything.  I found that to be very, very good advice to be honest.  I think if I would have gone Production first, it would have been more complicated and I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much.

 

However, before my first match, I ended up finding an outstanding deal on an XDm 5.25" Comp .40, so I jumped on it because I wanted to shoot 40 anyway, so I never did use my XD 9 Mod.2.   Again, everyone is different and you have to see what works for you, but honestly this worked out much better for me and I was able to concentrate on learning the course and what goes on in general.  I could transfer to Production now and just limit loading my mags, but I like Limited, so I'll most likely stay there.

Edited June 9, 2017 by R1_Demon

[wtturn]

I guess I'm shooting Major Production, at the Golden Bullet my ammo chrono'ed out to 138 PF!!! I guess I need to re-do my load.

Lol