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Bullet Getting Caught in the Rifling of Shadow 2 Barrel


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I ultimately decided to send my barrel to patriot defense. The 500 precision bullets were from a certificate I was given, so I feel as though I am coming out ahead.

 

 

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On 6/5/2017 at 2:52 PM, IDescribe said:

Very helpful picture.  It shows too things.  

The first is that with the Bayou, the 'shoulder' is closer to the base of the bullet than on the Precision, meaning the ogive starts sloping away from the bullet's maximum diameter closer to the base than on the Precision.  You can tell just from the picture that between those two bullets at their max OAL, the Precision will have more of its ass stuck down into the case.

The second thing is that you can see a significant bevel on the base of the Bayou.  This means you can get the base of the Bayou a little deeper into the case without engaging case walls where they start to thicken around .300.  Again, somewhere in that neighborhood, the interior diameter of the case starts to shrink, and it's not ideal to have the bullet shank get below that point.  

 

If you look at the pic below of a bisected 9mm case, you can see what I referred to as the "mechanical limit" or "hard deck" adjacent to the arrows.  From the case mouth down to the arrows, the case wall thickness is the same.  Below the arrows, the case walls start to get thicker, and the case interior narrows.  You do not want the base of the bullet to get below that point.  As you can easily picture, the bevel on the Bayou would allow the true base to get a little below that point without issue, but once the full diameter of the bullet -- the shank -- gets below that point, it will start to get squeezed by the case walls, and one of two things must happen -- either the bullet base gets swaged to a smaller diameter, or the case walls will get pushed out.  You are better off if neither of these things happens, so I would suggest you keep the bullet base above that level, which is .300 from the case mouth, except with a beveled base, where you can go a little deeper without problem.

 

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NOW, as to your bullet in particular. You said you don't get it to plunk and spin freely until 1.08.  Your bullet is .660 in length.  So .75 + .66 - 1.08 = .330.  Your seating depth at that OAL with that bullet will be .330.  AND that Precision bullet has a flat base, meaning you don't get the leeway of a bevel.  My guess is that that bullet is NOT going to work well in your CZ.  If you want to check it, load one of them to 1.12 and pull the bullet.  Measure the base.  That will give you a baseline for base diameter above the mechanical limit.  Then load another one of them to 1.08, pull that bullet, and measure the base.  Do the bullet bases measure the same?  Has the one that was loaded to 1.08 had it's based swaged down a little to a smaller diameter?  If that's the case, accuracy will suffer.  This could be anything from the occasional frustrating flyer that there's no explanation for, to consistently bad accuracy, to outright tumbling.  NOW, if there's no effect to the bullet base, and the case walls aren't getting bowed out in a way that affects feeding, then load away and have fun.  But if loading to 1.08 swages the base at all, you'd be better off using them in another pistol and looking elsewhere for a good bullet for the CZ.
 

Enlightening:o Thank you for another in-depth explanation.

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Just my 2 cents - I have 147 Berry's at 1.140" OAL and they load into both my Shadow and Shadow 2. The ogive on the Berry's is pretty good as I ran them in my XDM, Glock and SA 1911. Great all purpose bullets.

The coated bullets tend not to be as consistent on diameter or ogive. I have some Blue Bullets which some don't fit well either. The Berry's are very consistent and even ran in my Shadow at 1.150"

However, my 125 Hornady HAPs would not go into either barrel. I had the Shadow Barrel Reamed and it works just fine.

The Shadow 2 barrel is a no go as the reaming did not work since it is hardened.

So, I have been shortening my HAPs from 1.100" to 1.075" and they run just fine.

But now having to go back and run 10,000 loaded bullets through my Dillon is not high on my list. I did run 1000 through to try and shoot and they run fine.

I may send my barrel in to Patriot if I get lazy or don't want to change my loads.

You might want to try different bullets - Berry's or send it in.

I do love my Shadow 2 though, the stippling is fantastic.

Good luck.

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MKarino, it's not that the HAP wouldn't go in the barrel.  It's that you didn't do what you needed to in order to load the HAP successfully.  You should NEVER assume that two different bullets are going to work at the same OAL.  There are a couple of methods to be employed to determine the maximum OAL you can load a bullet to in a particular pistol, and you should run one of those tests for every bullet in every pistol before loading.

I'm not saying this to knock you.  I'm saying it so that you don't run into that problem again.  It sounds like you loaded 10,000 bullets without checking the OAL in the pistol you wanted to use them in?  That sounds like a hard lesson learned.  Your functional OAL with them is pretty typical for a CZ.  I load HAPs at 1.080 for my Shadow Line.  The most accurate loads that I've ever loaded for 9mm were 115gr HAP.  They're fantastic bullets.

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I'd rather ream the throat than ever have to worry about COL. I bought a reamer from brownells and took care of it myself. My Shadow will fit any bullet that will fit in any of my other pistols and I can still reach the lands within the magazine COL limits. I realize there is a concern with the nitride coating but pistols don't generally generate that much heat or wear out throats. My vote is to ream it out.

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I have shot close to 100K of various 147gr and some 124 gr bullets through my 3 Shadows without any issues. Reloads and factory ammo as well. I would load it as short as needed to work with my barrels. Sometimes it is as short as 1.060 (Which is the OAL of American Eagle 147 factory ammo that  I occasionally shoot at major matches). The OAL depends on the bullet profile. I do not think there is a need to ream the throat at all. This is not an issue IMO.

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20 hours ago, cheby said:

 This is not an issue IMO.

 

The countless threads on this forum clearly say otherwise. My very first interaction with a CZ was clearing stuck ammunition that fit in every other similar caliber handgun I own.

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1 hour ago, 858 said:

 

The countless threads on this forum clearly say otherwise. My very first interaction with a CZ was clearing stuck ammunition that fit in every other similar caliber handgun I own.

What I meant is you just need to find the right OAL for your CZ and load to it.  After that it is not an issue. The issue discussed in all those threads is people do NOT want to load that short for various reasons (Wrong ones, IMHO).

BTW all the factory ammo I tried worked just fine in all my CZs (5 total). 

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What are the concerns with reaming the throat of the barrel?  Most other factory parts are changed, swapped, modified, milled, etc on these guns; what is the opposition to modifying the barrel to allow for more reloading options.  I have just ordered my first CZ and have no idea if the ammo that I have been using for my XDM will work in it or not.  However, it seems to me that the industry would have certain specifications for barrel/chamber size, and it strikes me odd that ammo that works in other 9mms will not work in a CZ.  I further assume that reaming the throat just brings the chamber to the specs it should have been to start with?

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34 minutes ago, cheby said:

What I meant is you just need to find the right OAL for your CZ and load to it.  After that it is not an issue. The issue discussed in all those threads is people do NOT want to load that short for various reasons (Wrong ones, IMHO).

BTW all the factory ammo I tried worked just fine in all my CZs (5 total). 

 

Some of us prefer to make loads that work in all of our 9mm's. My 1911 9mm prefers being loaded longer. I also noticed that my factory glock barrels also need to be loaded short as well. So I ended up reaming the aftermarket glock barrels and CZ barrels so all of my loads will work.

 

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1 minute ago, himurax13 said:

 

Some of us prefer to make loads that work in all of our 9mm's. My 1911 9mm prefers being loaded longer. I also noticed that my factory glock barrels also need to be loaded short as well. So I ended up reaming the aftermarket glock barrels and CZ barrels so all of my loads will work.

 

I still shoot Glocks and other pistols. I had some issues with Lone Wolff and KKM barrels that did not like the long ammo I used to load for Glocks stock barrels as well. They all now work fine with the shortest ammo I load for my CZ.

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37 minutes ago, sniemann said:

What are the concerns with reaming the throat of the barrel?  Most other factory parts are changed, swapped, modified, milled, etc on these guns; what is the opposition to modifying the barrel to allow for more reloading options.  I have just ordered my first CZ and have no idea if the ammo that I have been using for my XDM will work in it or not.  However, it seems to me that the industry would have certain specifications for barrel/chamber size, and it strikes me odd that ammo that works in other 9mms will not work in a CZ.  I further assume that reaming the throat just brings the chamber to the specs it should have been to start with?

Well, reaming the throat does not bring the chamber to the specs. It is already in the specs. That is why all the factory ammo works fine. The ammo we reload needs to be in the specs:) 

Second, there are no any concerns with reaming the barrel. Do it if you want to. It is just a waste of money and time in my opinion.

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5 minutes ago, sniemann said:

I further assume that reaming the throat just brings the chamber to the specs it should have been to start with?

 

Should have been?    According to whom?  There is no design requirement for a specific length to the free-bore -- the distance between the head-spacing step and the leading edge of the rifling lands.  Different manufacturers ream the chamber with a free bore of different lengths, based on their design needs.  There are lots of places in the world where RN is the only profile that's legal.  And most military forces use FMJ-RN "ball" ammo for standard issue pistol ammo.  That's what these short-throated Eurpoean pistols are reamed for: RN.  The Springfield XD is a rebadged Croat pistol, and it's the same way.  And some Walther pistols are reamed with the same shorter free-bore.  There are others.  
 

So I'm not sure where the should have been comes from, especially when the bullets that can't be loaded in these short-throated chambers are rare.  Most of the people reaming their chambers aren't doing so because they want to use a bullet that won't work.  They're doing so because they want to create one load to use in all their pistols.  Which also means they aren't interested in tuning their loads to their specific pistols, which is one of the biggest advantages of reloading.  And it also means that they are either ignoring, or they haven't figured out that they can STILL have one load for all their pistols by loading to the pistol with the shortest maximum OAL and using THAT load in all of their pistols. Reaming is not necessary.  And it's only barely a convenience.

 

21 minutes ago, sniemann said:

What are the concerns with reaming the throat of the barrel?  


The primary concern would be a negative impact on accuracy.  As I said earlier in this thread, if you ask on Benos, barrel reaming is a no risk proposition that everyone should do, but if you ask at CZFirearms, reaming holds the risk of degrading accuracy, and while I can't tell you I've seen anyone at that forum who has done it and had accuracy suffer, some of the old-timers in that forum refer to people in the past who have had exactly that happen -- reduced accuracy.  

 

I've never reamed a barrel.  I've never had it done by someone else.  I don't know anyone myself who has had a barrel a reamed barrel where that resulted in reduced accuracy. I do not claim to know with any sort of educated certainty WHY a reduction in accuracy might happen (though I have some good guesses).   HOWEVER, I do know people who have had gunsmiths identify poor factory reams, where re-reaming actually improved accuracy.  And it stands to reason that if it's possible to for a good re-ream to fix a poor factory ream, then it's possible for a poor re-ream to ruin a good factory ream.  If you have an accurate pistol re-reamed, it might come back less accurate than it went out.  This may be incredibly uncommon, but there IS some risk associated with a re-ream.  Whether or not that risk is worth being able to load to some arbitrary and unnecessary but preferred OAL is up to the gun owner.  

 


 

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3 hours ago, cheby said:

Well, reaming the throat does not bring the chamber to the specs. It is already in the specs. That is why all the factory ammo works fine. The ammo we reload needs to be in the specs:) 

Second, there are no any concerns with reaming the barrel. Do it if you want to. It is just a waste of money and time in my opinion.

 

Unless you have ammo that contacts the rifling of your barrel early...

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On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 8:42 PM, IDescribe said:

 
...and you can't figure out how to seat the bullet deeper.

 

Or you want to make ammo that works in all of your 9mm's instead of only catering to one specific platform...

 

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10 minutes ago, himurax13 said:

 

Or you want to make ammo that works in all of your 9mm's instead of only catering to one specific platform...

 

the shortest ammo will work in all pistols

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He's saying that ammo that needs to be loaded .03-.04 shorter for a CZ, XD, or Tanfo will work fine in the longer-throated Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs, etc., and he's right.  He's not saying super short ammo in general.  He's talking about a difference of less than a dime's thickness.

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38 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

He's saying that ammo that needs to be loaded .03-.04 shorter for a CZ, XD, or Tanfo will work fine in the longer-throated Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs, etc., and he's right.  He's not saying super short ammo in general.  He's talking about a difference of less than a dime's thickness.

Thank you

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7 hours ago, IDescribe said:

He's saying that ammo that needs to be loaded .03-.04 shorter for a CZ, XD, or Tanfo will work fine in the longer-throated Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs, etc., and he's right.  He's not saying super short ammo in general.  He's talking about a difference of less than a dime's thickness.

 

Sounds like your're saying it's not a problem unless it is. A dime's thickness is enough to choke a factory CZ barrel. 

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We're talking about max OALs made necessary by leade-length.  THEN we're talking about the maximum OAL for a short-leade pistol causing feeding problems in a long-leade pistol, not because of leade length, but because of unrelated differences in chamber, ramp, or other pistol geometry causing feeding to go to hell in that window of three or four hundredths of an inch.   Bullet profiles with which that happens are few and far between.

 

Yes, I'm saying it's not a problem until it's a problem, and that it's so rarely (if ever) a problem that using it as an explanation for making a permanent cut to a pistol is nonsense.

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