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OK, I just had to dig into BOD meeting minutes to find important information. Am I the only one that thinks this is not how this is supposed to work?

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I would be cautious of referring to someone as a sandbagger. Like someone said earlier, that's a lot of preparation and execution to stay in a specific class. Most of the shooters I know want to move up, because it's a matter of pride to have a higher classification. 

 

Secondly, classifiers test a specific set of skills that are not necessarily directly related to a field course. A person with a slow draw or a weak reload can find many other places in a field course to make up valuable time and perform better than their classified counterparts. 

 

Lastly, calling someone a sandbagger is the same as calling them a cheater. Think how you would feel about that????

 

JMHO

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50 minutes ago, Boudreaux78 said:

I would be cautious of referring to someone as a sandbagger. Like someone said earlier, that's a lot of preparation and execution to stay in a specific class. Most of the shooters I know want to move up, because it's a matter of pride to have a higher classification. 

 

Secondly, classifiers test a specific set of skills that are not necessarily directly related to a field course. A person with a slow draw or a weak reload can find many other places in a field course to make up valuable time and perform better than their classified counterparts. 

 

Lastly, calling someone a sandbagger is the same as calling them a cheater. Think how you would feel about that????

 

JMHO

IF someone is bold enough to obviously sandbag and basically tell you that's what they were doing, then they deserve to be called out (believe it or not, I've seen a few of these). IF they are not an obvious sandbagger, you better be sure before you call them out. 

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I'm assuming there is some interpretation in how the classification rules are written around major match bumps.  Anyone have any insight how the preface pages are applied to the implementation of classification updates?  I'm not seeing enough detail in the rulebook preface (only one paragraph) and the classification course book needs some obvious updates.

 

January-2017 BOD meeting, Slide 10 reads (including matching indentations):

Recommended changes to major match bump

  Currently, a review must be requested, and performed manually. 

Change to auto adjudication by system for national matches, clarify Nationals in registration system.

  Per rule book, 95% or higher at Nationals will result in a bump to GM

No change recommended.

  Per rule book, competitor MAY get a bump based on performance at a major match

Change to 3 GM’s required in a division placing 90% or greater.

Change to auto adjudication by system for level 2 and above, remove manual review.

Change to require 50 competitors per division.

Change to require competitor to place 5% or higher above current class ceiling.

Not a rule change, but requires the preface on pages ii and iii of the current rulebook to be modified or removed.

 

Feb 2014 Handgun Rules, page V (not II or III)

https://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/Feb 2014 Handgun Rules.pdf

    Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help establish classification. Placement in a major event with a score above your assigned class percentage may result in your being promoted to a higher class, even if your current average is lower. Winning first or second in class at an Area Championship or Major Tournament AND shooting into the next higher class may result in promotion (except to Grand Master); winning High Overall in an Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class. In addition, if you score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be immediately moved to Grand Master class for that division

 

National Classification Course Book, 4th Edition (updated in 2013)  [needs some obvious updates...]

https://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/NCCB_4.1_2016.pdf

See Page 8 for "Scores From Major Matches", copy/pasted below

    A shooter’s performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help establish a classification. In order for overall scores from a Level II or Level III match to be entered as a classifier, the match director must submit an Application for Level II or Level III match with the “Results for Classification” check box marked. Please note that there is no guarantee that the overall results will be used. As a minimum requirement, the results and competitor list will be reviewed at the USPSA office to determine whether enough top shooters completed the match and performed at a level high enough to be considered a national standard.

   If the match is determined to have satisfied all of the requirements, the final score of the match may be entered as a classification score for each shooter. Each division is evaluated based on this criteria so it may be possible for scores from one division to be used while the other division is not.

   Level II and Level III matches also may contain classification stages taken from the National Classification Course Book; however, the match director does need to submit the classification report which is generated by the EzWinScore program. Stats officers can program EzWinScore to calculate the correct activity fees for the various levels of USPSA matches when setting up the match on the computer. Select Setup - Match Info, then select the appropriate match type from the drop-down list. Fees for classifier stages are established when the stage is defined. Beginning with EzWinScore version 2.00, classifier files have been pre-defined for you. When defining a stage, set the Classifier drop-down list to Yes to display an additional listing of all authorized classifier stages. If the classifier stage you want to shoot is not listed, it is no longer authorized for use.

   In addition, if the competitor shoots an Area Championship or major tournament and wins first or second in a class higher than his or her current classification, the member may be promoted to that higher class, except for Grand Master.

Edited by IronicTwitch
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1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I only see a slide show recommending a change. Do the minutes actually vote on this and change it? If so that should be common knowledge by now.

 

Found it, page 6 here: https://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20170121.pdf

 

Mike Foley, President- USPSA classification system improvements and updates

• Presentation by President (attached to minutes at posting)

• Motion to adopt changes to classification system as presented, (presentation document to be included in minutes). Matches to be used as a classifier, Level 2 or above, requires 3GM’s finishing 90% or above, and minimum 50 competitors in the division. Match classification bump, Level 2 or above, requires 3GM’s finishing 90% or above, minimum 50 competitors in the division, and competitor is required to finish 5% above current class ceiling.

Effective February 1, 2017 – by Area 7, 2nd by Area 1 o

Roll call vote requested by President

§ A1, A2, A3, A4(proxy), A5, A6, A7, Pres – Yes

§ A8 - No

o Motion carried

• There was a lengthy discussion to eliminate multiple re-entry classifiers in a single division in a single match, limiting the re-entry to a maximum of one. This part of the discussion was moved to the February BOD meeting in the interest of time.

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That "code" should be published then because the rule book and the classifier book don't mention it. No set numbers and no set percentage are referenced.
 
And doodie is the best communication channel area one can come up with? Yikes

Feel silly for making fun of doodie yet?
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53 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Never. doodie is well..... pure doodie.

 

The Prez and a few others in the know post over there. Admirably frankly, actually. It's refreshing. Sometimes a topic is extremely informative.

 

Obviously not all the threads are... worthy of pontificating at length.

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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The Prez and a few others in the know post over there. Admirably frankly, actually. It's refreshing. Sometimes a topic is extremely informative.
 
Obviously not all the threads are... worthy of pontificating at length.

Yep. BEnos is great for technical questions, the classifieds, reloafing information, and for getting tons of help when you are starting out in the sport. But for getting details on the actual 'state of the sport' type information, doodie is by far the best avenue.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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  I drew the line at calling Shooters wives vial names and such. I don't see how that makes it a place to get info on the "state of the sport".

  As much as I hate the moderating methods here it's safe to assume calling somebodies wife a whore etc won't fly

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10 hours ago, mlm said:

Just checked my classification, I shot that match and it is not there. If you are talking about the match in April of 2017.

Mike

If you were referencing my post about BITB, I think it was just production.

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15 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

If you were referencing my post about BITB, I think it was just production.

 

2017 BITB Single Stack did count as a classifier.  I have it shown on my page.

 

Capture.JPG

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39 minutes ago, Frieday said:

 

2017 BITB Single Stack did count as a classifier.  I have it shown on my page.

 

Capture.JPG

Cool. Was wondering.  Know someone who went up after that match. Heard it was a good o e.

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Heres my take on this whole issue.
In IDPA, I shot the classifier once for every gun/division that I wanted to compete in and rolled with that. I did it early on in my IDPA career and just stuck with it. They seem to be few and far between for a IDPA classifier and I'm not exactly seeking them out. If I shoot well enough to earn a promotion to the next class then thats what happens. This being said, if I dont shoot IDPA for a year (i think) then I need to go reclassify. Makes sense to me. I started as a MM and won enough major matches that I'm playing in EX and will probably get a M by the end of the year.

USPSA is a little different since I run into classifiers at the local matches. Its stupid and bad sportsmanship to purposefully shoot a bad classifier. Shoot to your ability and the rest will balance out. In my mind, I think it is cool I can go win C/B class 1st place trophies or plaques or whatever. When shooting classifiers, I rarely try to Hero or Zero it. I shoot it like every other stage in the match. 

I think if you go and shoot your ability and push yourself, you will move up in the classification and be competitive with your skill level. I think its dumb to shoot just to get a GM card and then get slaughtered by everyone else in the match.

I do dislike:

  • People that are CLEARLY A-M level shooters and they are rocking a C class designation. That to me is like, What are you trying to prove by spanking everyone in C class. Your 20% higher than the next C class guy and up in there with the other A-M guys...thats not cool but this person still won a plaque. I feel I actually earned mine battling it out with other B class dudes. Not by shooting at a M level in B class. Thats like taking my F1 car to the local go-kart track and spartan kicking a little kid in the face when I won the dollar store trophy.
  • People who purposefully change divisions when there is a classifier to avoid getting a bump. 
  • People who shoot classifiers for GM and then claim they are a GM. Also like.... cool your a GM but all those B class guys beat you. I'm kind of embarrassed for you. 
     
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49 minutes ago, Dutchman195 said:

I think it is cool I can go win C/B class 1st place trophies or plaques or whatever.

 

I don't think that's cool, hence I don't really care too much about classifiers or what class other people are or how they got there.

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There is one new wrinkle in the whole Sand Bagging world, and that's PCC there are several of the classifiers (specifically strong and weak hand no reload long range types) where the high hit factor is so out of whack that it is easy to classify higher than your real skill level. I have a friend that is a solid B class shooter with a handgun but initially classified A with a PCC and now is having to carefully not make master with PCC and pull all his B's up to an A where he would be non competitive. Either we need to redo all the PCC HHFs or decouple PCC from the pistol classifications so you could be more than one class different.

 

By solid I mean, better than C class but not in contention to win B 

Edited by MikeBurgess
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We have a local shooter that worked hard to make GM in PCC.  Now he says he is ready to move to a handgun and work on those skills.  He has shot a handful od Production classifiers and is in the 40s%.  He is going to CO and will have to avoid classifiers to maintain a "U" or shoot 4 classifiers and immediately become a "M" irregardless of his %.

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We have a local shooter that worked hard to make GM in PCC.  Now he says he is ready to move to a handgun and work on those skills.  He has shot a handful od Production classifiers and is in the 40s%.  He is going to CO and will have to avoid classifiers to maintain a "U" or shoot 4 classifiers and immediately become a "M" irregardless of his %.


I think the skill set transfers pretty well from one handgun division to another but rifle to handgun not so much.

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10 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

 


I think the skill set transfers pretty well from one handgun division to another but rifle to handgun not so much.


 

 

I would agree that PCC should not transfer to handgun or vice versa. The equity promotions or whatever they are called should be abolished for this. Or if you are already classified in any other division, no matter what start out at C class. (Unless your a D or lower)

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