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9mm Major 147g load help


docscoutjr

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In short order, I need some reliable intel on 147g  TMJ, 9mm major loads.

I have 4756, Auto comp, CFE, Silhouette at my disposal and not much else.

EDIT - TMJ for those that think their smarty pants.  Yes, shooting lead based bullets out of a comped gun isn't a great idea, not the end of the world, but does gum things up.  

EDIT - This is for an open gun.  Didn't think I needed to state that as who in their right mind would try 9mm major in a stock gun PLUSS it isn't IPSC legal to do so.  Sot thanks for the comments thus far, but I do know what I am doing and why.  Comments on 147g loads only please.  Not lectures on why it is a bad idea or why I shouldn't.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by docscoutjr
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Are these loads going to be shot with a comp?

 

Most people feel that lighter bullets, with more powder, will "work the comp" much better

reducing muzzle lift.

 

I'd think any of the powders you mention would get you a major load (1,100 fps) or so.

With WAC (AutoComp), I'd start at 4.5 grains and work up slowly with a chrono, loaded

out as long as possible.

 

Also, using FMJ bullets, with the exposed lead base, will require some cleaning on

your part to avoid "leading up the compensator".

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7 hours ago, docscoutjr said:

In short order, I need some reliable intel on 147g  FMJ, 9mm major loads.

I have 4756, Auto comp, CFE, Silhouette at my disposal and not much else.

Thanks.

 

 

 

Forget 147 with open.  124 grn is the heaviest.  147 being soft in production does not equate to an Open gun.  The first problem, 147 bullets are longer and sit deeper in the case.  Deeper equates to more pressure (possibly over-pressure especially in a 9 case) at open feet per second requirements.  Using less powder for 147 also means less gas to work the comp correctly.

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7 hours ago, docscoutjr said:

In short order, I need some reliable intel on 147g  FMJ, 9mm major loads.

I have 4756, Auto comp, CFE, Silhouette at my disposal and not much else.

Thanks.

 

 

 115, 121 or 124 with any of those powders (except CFE) will make a great shooting open gun

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Ics, just curious, I've used all of the powders docscout mentioned and when it comes to AutoComp vs CFE pistol to me there is very, very little difference to the point where effectively I find that they load and shoot the same.  What difference between those two powders do you experience. 

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I also find cfe and autocomp nearly identical. I use 7.6gr of cfe with 124 montana gold in my STI DVC OPEN. PF is 175.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

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With respect to using a 147 grain bullet for 9 Major, conventional wisdom has been that pressure tends to be lower with heavier bullets when pushed to the same power factor as light bullets, all else being equal. One manufacturer offers 9 Major only with a 147 grain bullet, and they suggest that the heavy bullet is desired to help keep pressure down. https://atlantaarms.com/products/9mm-major-147gr-jhp-elite.html

 

Powder selection when using a compensator generally points to using a powder that produces lots of gas for the compensator, which is nearly always the powder that requires the most charge weight to reach the desired velocity.  Of the powders you listed, Silhouette might be one that fits that description. Accurate #7 might be an even better choice if you can find some to try out. Other choices for a 147 grain bullet might be 3N38 and N105.

 

Lighter weight bullets do have the advantage of producing less muzzle rise in a compensated pistol because they provide more gas for the compensator.  http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/power-factor-recoil-bullet-weight-compensators/  That said, some folks might prefer a heavier bullet because it feels softer. You could try some lighter bullets as well as the 147s and determine which feels best to you. If you try that, let us know what you discover. We're always ready to learn. 

 

As mentioned, a bullet with lead exposed at the base (i.e. FMJ) might result in lead buildup in the compensator. A bullet with a covered base, such as a JHP would prevent that. 

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1 hour ago, Bamboo said:

Ics, just curious, I've used all of the powders docscout mentioned and when it comes to AutoComp vs CFE pistol to me there is very, very little difference to the point where effectively I find that they load and shoot the same.  What difference between those two powders do you experience. 

 

I excepted CFE because I do not have any data (never used it).  I do have a friend who tried CFE in 38SC and showed pressure signs.  My experience:  AutoComp is good with 124s and no barrel holes to deal with.  When you start upping the charge with AutoComp, I did not like the looks of the primers.   

 

IMR 4756 (now discontinued) can fill a 9 MM or 38 SC case with 115/121/124s and is safe.  Silhouette is a great powder also.  Temp sensitive!  Gets stronger in cold weather.

 

 

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On 5/26/2017 at 10:30 AM, docscoutjr said:

I have ton's of data and many years of experience with 124's.  Looking for data for 147's. 

Thanks.

Ok....so nobody has any 147g data they can share, yet lots of opinion on why not to use it, yet no data to back it up.  

 

 

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On 5/26/2017 at 0:37 AM, docscoutjr said:

In short order, I need some reliable intel on 147g  TMJ, 9mm major loads.

I have 4756, Auto comp, CFE, Silhouette at my disposal and not much else.

EDIT - TMJ for those that think their smarty pants.  Yes, shooting lead based bullets out of a comped gun isn't a great idea, not the end of the world, but does gum things up.  

EDIT - This is for an open gun.  Didn't think I needed to state that as who in their right mind would try 9mm major in a stock gun PLUSS it isn't IPSC legal to do so.  Sot thanks for the comments thus far, but I do know what I am doing and why.  Comments on 147g loads only please.  Not lectures on why it is a bad idea or why I shouldn't.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Figure it out yourself then.

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Vihtavuori load manual shows a max load for 3N38 under a 147 at 1.142" of 6.9gr making 177pf, given what I know about the relationship between WAC and 3N38 I would suspect you'd make the same PF with 5.3gr of WAC, so like Jack said: start at 4.5 and work your way up although since the max load in the Hodgdon manual is 4.0 you might start there for good measure ;)

 

You say you know what you're doing and why, so why are you asking us what you already know?

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6 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

 

You say you know what you're doing and why, so why are you asking us what you already know?

Exactly. Guys who have loaded bucketloads of 9MAJOR are trying to help and it seems very under appreciated.

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Vihtavuori load manual shows a max load for 3N38 under a 147 at 1.142" of 6.9gr making 177pf


This is the load I use for shooting pins in my open gun (sometime my Glock 34 as well).

Recoil is not super different than with 124s over 6.8 GR of WAC.
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Vihtavuori load manual shows a max load for 3N38 under a 147 at 1.142" of 6.9gr making 177pf


This is the load I use for shooting pins in my open gun (sometime my Glock 34 as well).

Recoil is not super different than with 124s over 6.8 GR of WAC.
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I found AA7 is slower than 3n38.  AA7 is also much cheaper than 3n38.  I can't comment on if either is dirty but they probably are not worse than HS6.

The other nice thing about AA7 is that it is very dense compared to 3n38.  Thus, AA7 does not fill the case up nearly as fast as 3n38.  You can get a lot more grains of powder before compressing with AA7.

 

Full-length barrel with 3 small holes. 9 major

Berry 147 RN - 6.49gn HS6 - 1.200" - 9mm WIN - 1179.3fps  -173.4PF

Berry 147 RN - 7.2gn 3n38 - 1.230" - 9mm WIN - 1172.7fps -172.4PF

Berry 147 RN - 8.02gn AA7 - 1.230" - 9mm WIN - 1174fps   -172.6PF

Start low and work up with Chrono.  These are loaded long so FPS will change with shorter length.

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May I sorta hijack this thread?

We have been loading and shooting 115 major for a bit now and plan on experimenting with 147 and 124 grain bullets of the same make.  I have some reliable data on the 124 grain loading.  I only have WAC to load with and would appreciate any data I can get.  Especially for the 147 grain plated round nose.    

 

Thank You in advance. 

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6 hours ago, thehudge said:

Especially for the 147 grain plated round nose.    

 

I wouldn't bother with the 147 for major,

 

or the plated RN.

 

Stick with 124 gr JHP's - much better - use 6.5 - 0 7.2 grains WAC

at 1.16" OAL.     :) 

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I realize the currant wisdom of this collective is to not go there but I have already ordered 147 grain bullets to play around with.  

More than likely we will stay with the 115 or go back to the 124's but for now its time to have some fun in "reloading experimentation".

Like i said before, I'm just looking for some data from people who have been there. I guess I just wanna see for myself. 

 

Thank again.     

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I've shot 150gr LSWCs out of 38 supers at 175 pf major and it is a good shooting load.  Probably won't hold you back unless you are already running the el prez with times consistently in the 5.xx second range.    Splits might be slower but accuracy could be better (used to use 150 gr bullets for the 50 yd standards course).   If you can shoot the 147's well and get your A's....that might be your edge.   Experimentation can be good. 

 

Looking forward to your report!

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  • 7 months later...
On 7/19/2017 at 11:00 AM, IDescribe said:

Don't get tricked into thinking faster is more accurate.  It is common to find accuracy nodes with a particular bullet/powder/pistol combination.  When someone is working up a ladder, and they get to a load where groups tighten up, it can seem like groups tightened up because they got faster, when in fact they tightened up because they got into an accuracy range/node, and if you continue to go faster still, you may see accuracy drop back off.  So it's not about a faster velocity, but about the right velocity.

 

I recently ran some accuracy tests with the same 124gr jacketed bullet in my CZ-75 ShadowLine with six different powders.  With all powders, there was a charge weight that was distinctly more accurate than the others, and the average muzzle velocities for those loads with the same bullet and six different powders ranged from 1066 and 1081. And with all six powders, a tenth of a grain higher saw groups loosen back up.  That's my pistol with those bullets, but I will say that after I recognized the trend, I realized that every minor PF pet load I've got for that pistol with ANY 124/125gr bullet falls into a PF range of 132-135, so a velocity range of roughly 1060 to 1090 .  I doubt that's a random coincidence.  I'm pretty sure that pistol likes that bullet weight in that velocity range.  NOW, that doesn't mean there's not another accuracy node somewhere higher.  In fact, there certainly is.  But if I wanted to find it, I would want still want to stay out of what's called the transonic range, which is where you are with those 115gr bullets.

When a bullet travels supersonic, it creates a bow-wave of compressed air.  As the bullet slows down, it sort of catches up (not exactly what happens, but easy to conceptualize) with the bow wave and passes through it. You have probably seen video at some point or another of a fighter jet slowing down, and these large disks of water vapor appear around the jet as if the jet is passing through them.  That's what that is -- the bow wave.  The jet is passing through its own bow wave, and some air is passing around the jet at super sonic speeds, and some air at subsonic speeds, and it pushes the jet around.  It's the same with a bullet.  When the bullet slows down and goes from supersonic to subsonic, it is buffeted about while passing through its own destabilizing bow wave, and precision is affected negatively.  It doesn't happen just at the sound barrier.  It might start 20-30 feet/sec over the sound barrier and continue 15-20 feet below the sound barrier.  That range that straddles the sound barrier is the transonic range.  If you are looking for ultimate precision, your goal should be to stay out of that range for the entire flight of the bullet.  If the sound barrier is 1120, you should want to keep your bullet outside of 1100-1150 from muzzle to target, and since bullets decelerate in flight, you need to start higher than 1150.  At 50 yard targets, you might want to keep the muzzle velocity at 1200 or over, to make sure the bullet hasn't decelerated into the transonic range before hitting the target.  

This doesn't usually matter for action shooting since most handloaders use 124gr or heavier bullets and keep them below 1100, but if you're shooting a 115gr bullet, the common minor power factor range is going to put you right in that transonic range.  

To be clear, I'm not saying this is going to make your 115gr loads outright inaccurate.  They most likely are still suitably accurate for action pistol if used in the transonic range.  Like so many other loading considerations, something having a negative impact does not always mean having a significantly negative impact, and you should always accept measurable results over theory, but if you're looking to improve precision, this is one easy avenue to pursue.  I personally keep my pistol loads under 1100 or over 1200.  It's not a difficult restriction to work with. ;)  And if you prefer to use fast burn rate pistol powders to keep down recoil, your best course of action may in fact be to go with that 125gr Hornady HAP and find the most accurate load near but under 1100 feet/sec.  I wish you luck.  ;)  

You guys in this forum know a crap load of critical information. I Appreciate finding these little nuggets of wisdom and knowledge throughout BE forum. Idescribe posts about the bow-wave effect of trans-sonic speeds and how it can affect accuracy. The 147gr at major pf falls right in this trans-sonic range. Brilliant Idescribe, just brilliant. Makes a ton of sense. 

Edited by RickyBaby
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On 6/3/2017 at 6:34 PM, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

I wouldn't bother with the 147 for major,

 

or the plated RN.

 

Stick with 124 gr JHP's - much better - use 6.5 - 0 7.2 grains WAC

at 1.16" OAL.     :) 

Jack...any deviation between 124 JHP and RN?......thinking RMR to be specific......Thanks...getting into the Major 9 world!

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