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Is major falling out of favor in Limited


Majja

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This thread is like a car wreck.  It hurts me a little to look at but I just can't look away.  

 

Either an A+ on the troll job or just another millennial who thinks the entire world should cater to them and what they want. 

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32 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Nothing useful going on. Sarcasm and insults to those who disagree.

 

Yes, lock it.

Yuup, they have been mean to me the whole time.

 

Horse has been beat.

 

+2

Edited by Jeff226
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15 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

No, no, no....40 would be even less competive than the 9mm, which doesn't have enough extra capacity to be competitive as is. 

 

So, your answer is really "Yes, yes, yes...40 would be even less competive than the 9mm..." because that's exactly what I asked you:

Quote

What point are you arguing now?  

 

That 40 isn't competitive in Limited minor because of the capacity disadvantage?  

 

That would mean that 9mm in Limited minor would be competitive due to the capacity advantage.

 

 

15 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

paraphrase: "Blah blah bla...lots of made up stuff...."

 

When you are cracking the top 60 in limited at Nationals, or even at a level 3 match, shooting minor then I might believe you know what you are talking about.  Until then, I'd say the consistent results proving that minor is not competitive at higher level matches speaks volumes more than you beating the same two dudes at your local match each month.

 

The numbers that I mentioned were approximations, sure, but that doesn't change the validity of the information.

 

I have provided you with the data that I collected from shooting major and minor at the same match and that data compared over multiple matches over the last couple of years.  

 

I may do well at my locals, but that's not a point in contention here.  My major/minor comparison was based on match hit factor, not comparisons to other shooters.  I also changed the order of my shooting, so it wasn't always minor -> major.  I tried to keep it honest and sometimes shot minor -> major and sometimes major -> minor.

 

Since I'm a middle-of-the-pack B-class shooter at majors, I thought that this information would be valuable to you since it's the middle and bottom of the pack shooters that you're fighting for.

 

If you want to generate your own data to prove your theories, do as I suggested;  use the Practiscore Competitor app and play with the "what ifs".   You can't shoot Nationals more than once (as far as I'm aware), so you're not going to get the exact data that you need.  Even if you could shoot Nationals more than once, you'd have to shoot two Nationals with both major and minor, but shoot minor first at one and major first at the other.  Otherwise, there is an advantage the 2nd time you shoot the same match.  In other words, you're going to have to extrapolate from the available data.

 

15 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Can't clone people and have them shoot twice.  

 

Data is undeniable...an assertion made by one of the other thinking people in this thread.

 

States that "data is undeniable" but rejects data that doesn't support his way of thinking... 

 

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6 hours ago, teros135 said:

 

Awwwwww...

You were the one crying about sarcasm and insult aimeds at those who disagree...and part of the guilty mob beating on us that disagree..

 

Shame on you

Edited by Jeff226
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2 hours ago, N3WWN said:

 

1.  So, your answer is really "Yes, yes, yes...40 would be even less competive than the 9mm..." because that's exactly what I asked you:

 

2.  Since I'm a middle-of-the-pack B-class shooter at majors, I thought that this information would be valuable to you since it's the middle and bottom of the pack shooters that you're fighting for.

 

3.  States that "data is undeniable" but rejects data that doesn't support his way of thinking... 

 

 

1.  Limited minor 9mm can not make up the scoring disadvantage vs major with the extra 3 rounds.  Limited minor 40 wouldn't even have the 3 extra rounds, so logically it would be even less competitive against limited major 40.  Yes, 40 minor would be less competitive (at some fractional level) vs 40 major than 9mm minor is.  Very simple, not sure how you got that confused.

 

2.  I am arguing for a whole range of shooters that do or would choose limited minor.  There are many people shooting limited minor that are far better than middle of the pack B class shooters.  The game doesn't revolve around middle of the pack B class shooters.

 

3.  I have supported, clarified, quoted others, humored the trolls, and even tried to help several of you with reading difficulties.  That was my mistake.  From now on I won't reply to the trolls and special people.  I have already spent enough time on this thread with those people...I am calling it a thread.  Later.

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

I know this is a tired debate, but as a disabled veteran with a neurological injury to my elbow and forearm I can't shoot major anymore. I very much would like to come out with a heavy, high capacity 9mm and be more competitive for tracking my scores easier within my division, but I realize why it is the way it is.. 

 

For what is worth, I think both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Minor can have an advantage, and it also can't make up the difference - there is an equalibrium point. In Limited, 7% more ammo doesn't matter when both guns have enough ammo for two 8 shot arrays in a row where stage layout couldn't possible force a static reload with that many rounds, so the scoring advantage is insurmountable.

 

However, in single stack where there is 20% more ammo, a single missed shot on an 8 shot array could result in a static reload and enough of a delay to cover for Charlie or two in that stage because the minor shooter could make up that shot or push the speed a bit more knowing they had a margin. 

 

In Revolver, where there is a 33% capacity advantage to minor, minor is king. A few 8 shot arrays or a polish plate rack is almost too much for anyone to overcome with similar skill level. 

 

I think on any given day an average A/B shooter could finish in the top half of club level match shooting Limited minor because stage layouts don't always capitalize on this advantage. Not a bad thing, but a thing none the less.

 

I know it is a game and people always look at the angles, but the highest hit factors on classiers don't belong to the divisions winners because the goal of the classifier is to shoot all As quickly (yes I know that is the point of every stage) but consider this..

 

Shooter "A" and shooter "B" both take up USPSA - they are equal skill level. "A" shoots Limited Major and "B" shoots Limited Minor. Each day they meet and for 100 straight days they attend a match together and shoot the same classifiers. Since so many classifiers fall in like a 3-7 second string range, Cs and Ds are a killer. So each shooter literally shoots nothing but As for all 100 classifiers. Who makes Master sooner?

 

Does doesn't anyone really think you can shoot all As in Major faster than minor? Long field course no contest, the Major gun always wins the match, but simple pursuing that little card with the even littler number on it? Not convinced it isn't just as easy in minor. 

 

I say shoot minor if you want and have a blast with low recoil and cheap components. Hell, I used to shoot a 6 shot revolver in Production and ever finished last even at level two matches. Then again I compete against myself and the mental preparedness I bring to the match. Then again I am always stuck shooting minor so my opinion is probably a bit biased. 

Lee

Edited by RevolverJockey
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On 6/22/2017 at 4:33 PM, Jeff226 said:

What makes single stack so special?  1911s can shoot 10 rds just like any other large frame magazine fed gun...why do they need their own division?  Why can't the 1911 "sissies" compete against everyone else with 10 rounds? ...

 

I think the reasoning is that a single action 1911 has an advantage over DA/SA or striker fired production guns. If the 1911 "sissies" were allowed to compete against everyone else with 10 rounds then pretty soon Production division would be just 1911s.

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50 minutes ago, tanks said:

 

I think the reasoning is that a single action 1911 has an advantage over DA/SA or striker fired production guns. If the 1911 "sissies" were allowed to compete against everyone else with 10 rounds then pretty soon Production division would be just 1911s.

 

I suspect Gary Stevens might chime in with the history of SS in USPSA.  It's not about "sissies", it's more about history, IIRC.

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2 hours ago, tanks said:

 

I think the reasoning is that a single action 1911 has an advantage over DA/SA or striker fired production guns. If the 1911 "sissies" were allowed to compete against everyone else with 10 rounds then pretty soon Production division would be just 1911s.

 

I'm guessing that you haven't shot a competition tuned CZ or Tanfo recently. 

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2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I'm guessing that you haven't shot a competition tuned CZ or Tanfo recently. 

 

Actually, I have a Cajunized SP-01. I still prefer the consistent single action 1.8 lbs trigger pull on every shot.

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11 hours ago, RevolverJockey said:

However, in single stack where there is 20% more ammo, a single missed shot on an 8 shot array could result in a static reload and enough of a delay to cover for Charlie or two in that stage because the minor shooter could make up that shot or push the speed a bit more knowing they had a margin. 

 

zombie thread lives!

Your point is entirely correct, but if you do the arithmetic, a single unplanned static reload (approx 1.5-2 seconds) makes up for a few stages worth of charlies, like 8 or so.

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On 5/22/2017 at 2:07 PM, Majja said:

Just curious what you all think.  Is Major starting to fall out of favor  for limited?  Will minor take over due to higher capacity of mags and the popularity of many of the new factory built pistols.  Not to mention that 40 S&W is loosing favor with many LEO agencies.  After all i just have to shoot faster and more A's correct ... :P

 

Matt

 

No

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On 8/28/2017 at 9:12 AM, tanks said:

 

Actually, I have a Cajunized SP-01. I still prefer the consistent single action 1.8 lbs trigger pull on every shot.

but do you actually shoot better scores? Obviously normal people will *prefer* a 1911 (i do), but in my experience, I shoot exactly the same scores in ss minor as I do in production. I would be totally comfortable letting 9mm 1911's with carry-style magwells compete in production. I think they would be at a *slight* disadvantage, but not enough to really matter, and it would increase the depth of competition. Of course production classifier hhf's are lower..... but that's do to SS HF"s being mostly based on limited major.

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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

but do you actually shoot better scores? Obviously normal people will *prefer* a 1911 (i do), but in my experience, I shoot exactly the same scores in ss minor as I do in production. I would be totally comfortable letting 9mm 1911's with carry-style magwells compete in production. I think they would be at a *slight* disadvantage, but not enough to really matter, and it would increase the depth of competition. Of course production classifier hhf's are lower..... but that's do to SS HF"s being mostly based on limited major.

I feel like this would kill single stack, but I never really understood the division anyway - didn't it already exist (L10) and barely anyone shot it. 

 

What I would like to see is a production match with people shooting production guns. Seriously, $2,000 purpose built factory "race" guns aren't exactly what I think of when I hear the word production. I think of a novice competitor with their bone stock production assembly line gun and some uncle mikes belt holsters. Where is the actual production division?

 

Not trying to be a negative Nancy but let's be honest - is an Accushadow 2 a Production gun - or is it a hand fit custom gun pushing nearly every limit of production legal modification. This is totally fine with me because I only compete against myself but I can see how discouraging this could be. 

Lee

Edited by RevolverJockey
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Just curious what you all think.  Is Major starting to fall out of favor  for limited?  Will minor take over due to higher capacity of mags and the popularity of many of the new factory built pistols.  Not to mention that 40 S&W is loosing favor with many LEO agencies.  After all i just have to shoot faster and more A's correct ... [emoji14]
 
Matt

Doubt it ever will become a minor division with top shooters. To my knowledge only shooter has ever won a major match (meaning level 3 or higher) shooting minor in a division with major/minor. And, it wasn't Limited.


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