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Is major falling out of favor in Limited


Majja

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25 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

Another really simple solution to this issue would be to just disallow anything smaller than .40 in Limited.  Problem solved.

 

+1

 

40 minor, 180 gr bayou & Clays is a really fun load. 

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51 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

That's really the joke of this thread.  Anyone who can afford to shoot enough to seriously compete to win can afford to buy a gun appropriate to their division.  So all this hubbub revolves around people who aren't playing to win anyway. ;) 

 

That really isn't the joke of the thread.  Better examples below:

 

47 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

If you really want to shoot a 9mm bullet at major PF, just get a .357 Sig.  

 

Don't see the need for another division.  We have 5 out of 8 of our divisions with minor/major scoring.  Shoot minor and get more ammo capacity or shoot major and get better points.  It is really that simple.

 

15 pages in, still lost

 

32 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

Another really simple solution to this issue would be to just disallow anything smaller than .40 in Limited.  Problem solved.

 

Think about that a while.

 

4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

+1

 

40 minor, 180 gr bayou & Clays is a really fun load. 

 

Awesome, you are gonna tear up limited minor B class with even less rounds than the 9mm had!!!   "Think about that a while"

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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

 

 

Awesome, you are gonna tear up limited minor B class with even less rounds than the 9mm had!!!   "Think about that a while"

 

Thinking might have made you wonder if I was serious?

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4 hours ago, CarlB86 said:

This long story leads me to my question. Do most limited shooters prefer the .40 for carry/defense or is it purely a competition round for them? (in my mind it is competition only, but I'm guessing there must be a following for it)

 

Unlike jeff, I can't make up stuff about 'most limited shooters', but I can tell you that many LE agencies still carry 40, and many people carry 40. I started out carrying 40, and most of the time i alternate between 9 and 45 now, but both of those calibers are a little sub-par for large wildlife, so I still prefer to carry a 40 in the woods.

 

i load 9mm for 9-10 cents/round and 40 for 11-12, and brass is more prevalent for 40 and in better condition (much higher percentage passes case gauge). But honestly, I don't really care. I shoot what I shoot. I don't expect motorcycle races to cater to whatever sissy little scooter the hipsters are riding around town, and I don't expect pistol matches to cater to whatever the most popular gun at cabela's is.

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3 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Gear is definitely what separates the winners from the losers...

 

Immortalized for posterity. Possibly the wrongest thing ever posted. Everything else in this thread should be taken in the context of the amazing wrongness of this statement.

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3 hours ago, IDescribe said:

That's really the joke of this thread.  Anyone who can afford to shoot enough to seriously compete to win can afford to buy a gun appropriate to their division.  So all this hubbub revolves around people who aren't playing to win anyway. ;) 

 

+1.

 

In the long run, if one wishes to compete training, ammo, reloading equipment etc. is going to cost much, much more than the firearm even an Infinity 2011. Also, again if one wishes to compete seriously then one is NOT going to use factory ammo, even for 9mm. 

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41 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Immortalized for posterity. Possibly the wrongest thing ever posted. Everything else in this thread should be taken in the context of the amazing wrongness of this statement.

 

Amen!

+1

^This!

Truer words were never spoken!

 

...aaah, you get the idea...

 

An entertaining discussion.  Lots of "alternative facts", but entertaining nonetheless.

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4 hours ago, IDescribe said:

Another really simple solution to this issue would be to just disallow anything smaller than .40 in Limited.  Problem solved.

 

4 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Think about that a while.

 

I thought about it before I wrote.  Get rid of 9mm shooters, and you get rid of the whinging and whining.  Problem solved.

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4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

Immortalized for posterity. Possibly the wrongest thing ever posted. Everything else in this thread should be taken in the context of the amazing wrongness of this statement.

 

I have lots of company in my wrongness.  You can't win if you aren't competitive.

 

On 6/13/2017 at 10:07 AM, Racinready300ex said:

So the problem is people want to be competitive, and don't have the right gear

 

On 6/13/2017 at 11:52 AM, N3WWN said:

Want to be competitive?!  Either obtain the gear and build the skills to use it, or build the skills to be competitive using your sub-optimum gear.

 

On 6/13/2017 at 2:05 PM, motosapiens said:

EVERYONE serious in limited shoots .40, so you can't 'rank up' by shooting a different caliber.

 

On 6/13/2017 at 11:35 PM, tanks said:

So, about $14K later in guns and magazines I am committed to shooting .40 in Limited. No, having to shoot .40 to compete did not keep me from shooting Limited.

 

On 6/14/2017 at 9:11 AM, teros135 said:

Using actual USPSA score data from 2016 Limited Nats (October 2016), there were 26 listed shooting minor out of 294 entries (8.84%).  The highest of them was 63rd (70% score), then 83rd, then 128th and downward.  

 

On 6/14/2017 at 9:15 AM, SWprotected said:

Major has an advantage in scoring, really this is ground breaking news.

 

On 6/14/2017 at 10:28 AM, N3WWN said:

To be competitive in any division, buy competitive equipment for said division.

 

On 6/14/2017 at 10:32 AM, bret said:

Limited in USPSA is dominated by people shooting 2011's in Major.

 

On 6/14/2017 at 3:03 PM, Racinready300ex said:

I don't think anyone will argue that 40 Major isn't the ideal set up for limited...and everyone will have to sell their shit and switch to new gear. 

 

On 6/15/2017 at 4:46 PM, Racinready300ex said:

Most guys who shoot majors take the game more seriously and will get the proper gear for the division they shoot.

 

On 6/15/2017 at 5:10 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

Major has an advantage. People like it that way.

 

On 6/18/2017 at 1:37 PM, Nik Habicht said:

breaking the top 60 at Nats simply indicates that the top 60 shooters in the division looked at the rules for that division, and then chose appropriate gear?  Yep -- if the goal is to win Limited at Nats, you ought to bring a .40 and shoot major.  

 

11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Anyone who wants to compete seriously is *going* to go buy another gun to shoot competitively, That is a known fact. 

 

10 hours ago, N3WWN said:

If you're in contention for winning Nationals, you're looking for every fraction of a percent improvement.  Those few percent advantage that Limited major has over Limited minor can be the difference 

 

10 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

if they want to be competitive they'll have to buy appropriate gear. 

 

9 hours ago, Husker95 said:

If they decide to stick with the sport then you make the choice to stay with the G-17 and go into Prod to be more productive or daddy gets them a dedicated 40 cal to shoot Lim Maj. 

 

6 hours ago, IDescribe said:

People who compete in the division to win shoot .40 because it both has the highest available round count at the max magazine length limit for the division that also meets the minimum caliber requirement for major power factor, which has the scoring advantage.  That's it.  .40 is chosen by those competing in it as a sport because it's the best caliber for the division from a competitive standpoint.  That's people who are playing to win.  

 

Edited by Jeff226
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12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

this is the fundamental point on which you are mistaken. Anyone who wants to compete seriously is *going* to go buy another gun to shoot competitively, whether or not you think they *should* have to do so. That is a known fact. It's also good for the economy, and helps make america great again. Why do you hate America?

 

On 6/20/2017 at 0:16 PM, motosapiens said:

what kind of uproar would it cause to suddenly make all the tens of thousands of 40 competition guns suddenly uncompetitive? most of these guns were purchased at great cost.

 

Making tens of thousands of 40 guns suddenly useless in USPSA would be like suddenly realizing they were useless in law enforcement.  Lots of new 9mms will be sold and this will be great for the economy including ammo manufacturers, aftermarket parts suppliers, and grip stiplers.  USPSA shooters have lots of money to throw around and the Fudds can still hug their obsolete 40s in the woods with the animals.

 

Why do you hate America?

 

 

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13 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Awesome, you are gonna tear up limited minor B class with even less rounds than the 9mm had!!!   "Think about that a while"

 

What point are you arguing now?  

 

That 40 isn't competitive in Limited minor because of the capacity disadvantage?  

 

That would mean that 9mm in Limited minor would be competitive due to the capacity advantage.

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15 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Gear is definitely what separates the winners from the losers...why would you make a silly statement like that when everybody else is saying you need the right gear and have to shoot major to win?

 

How about you try this at your next match, assuming your match has good coverage of the different classes:

 

You shoot Limited minor.  

The division winner will likely be shooting Limited major because serious about sport.  

Load up the match results in Practiscore Competitor.  

Edit the shooters so that the winner is shooting minor and you're shooting major.  

Notice that the winner is still in the top 3 or 5 and your still pretty much where you were.

 

The top shooters are usually within a few percent of each other.  In a match with a mediocre turnout, the winners will be within 10% percent of each other.  In a match with a heavy turnout, the winners will be within only a couple percent of each other.   These shooters are looking for every advantage they can get, so shooting major could mean the difference between shooter A earning 100% in the division (with shooter B at 99.5% and shooter C at 98%) and shooter B coming in at 100% and shooter A coming in at 99% (shooter C still around 98%).

 

The rest of the shooters will be spread between 20-something-% and about 85% at a local match (closer to 40-something-% and 90-95% at a major match).  For guys not in contention for winning the match, the gear isn't the issue.  The only caveat being that if your gun doesn't run, it doesn't matter what gear you have, what your skill level is or what power factor you declare;  there's a really good chance you're not going to win.

 

Still think it's a problem with gear and minor vs major scoring within a division?  Take a look at the combined results in Practiscore Competitor.  Add the division winners from every division to your comparison screen, edit them all to be shooting minor and edit yourself to be shooting major.  With the exception of revolver (due to the high number of comparatively slow reloads of most revolver shooters compared to fewer and/or faster magazine reloads), you're still likely to find yourself bringing up the rear.  "Why is that?" you ask?  Because they have the skill to win.

 

You'd do a LOT better at the matches if you stop worrying about someone having a minimal gear advantage over you and spend that time and energy dry firing, studying the movements/techniques of top shooters and buying/reloading ammo so you can do some live fire practice between matches.

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Why train more when you can make a 1 time investment in better gear....duh. Buy a SVI and then blame the equipment when you suck. 
Also if you cut a coil or 2 out of the mag spring you can get extra rounds in your 40 limited gun and have the same number of rounds as 9mm. Even better cut two coils off and take the follower out. Guaranteed to get a advantage over minor then. (you can also blame the gun when it doesnt work here too)

 

2 pages back:
Getting rid of revolver is a good idea. Merging Revo, SS and L-10 together is a bad idea. Leave single stack alone.

SSTK is a big enough problem on its own to go Minor v Major. But much like Limited, its part of the sport. Do you want a little car that maneuvers better or a big car with a big engine? Your answer: depends on the track

Much like at the matches, if its 10 round, then you want the minor gun (little car). If its 8 round friendly you want the major gun (big car). I think this can be applied to SS more than limited, but if there are a bunch of stages that you can shoot without reloading a minor gun, or all steel stages (Area 5) then the minor gun is better. 

 

While comparing to what the pros shoot is a good idea, I would also argue they dont miss. so the Minor v Major for them probably doesnt matter. They probably all reload in the same spots and shoot the stage the same way with either gun. They choose major because if they do throw a C or D shot, they have padding for scoring. When the shooter gets to the 'pro' level, they'll pony up and shoot 40. and they'll be looking back at all the B and lower class guys arguing about this still. 

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3 hours ago, N3WWN said:

You'd do a LOT better at the matches if you stop worrying about someone having a minimal gear advantage over you and spend that time and energy dry firing, studying the movements/techniques of top shooters and buying/reloading ammo so you can do some live fire practice between matches.

False. Blaming my gear is the only reason I dont win. And if someone has better gear than me and beats me its cuz my gear sucks. 

Unless I beat them, then I laugh about their bank account then go home and cry because I cant afford their fancy gun. At least when this happens my mom brings me milk and cookies. 

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9 hours ago, N3WWN said:

 

What point are you arguing now?  

 

That 40 isn't competitive in Limited minor because of the capacity disadvantage?  

 

That would mean that 9mm in Limited minor would be competitive due to the capacity advantage.

No, no, no....40 would be even less competive than the 9mm, which doesn't have enough extra capacity to be competitive as is. 

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Quote

paraphrase: "Blah blah bla...lots of made up stuff...."

 

You'd do a LOT better at the matches if you stop worrying about someone having a minimal gear advantage over you and spend that time and energy dry firing, studying the movements/techniques of top shooters and buying/reloading ammo so you can do some live fire practice between matches.

 

When you are cracking the top 60 in limited at Nationals, or even at a level 3 match, shooting minor then I might believe you know what you are talking about.  Until then, I'd say the consistent results proving that minor is not competitive at higher level matches speaks volumes more than you beating the same two dudes at your local match each month.

Edited by Jeff226
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Just now, Jeff226 said:

 

 

When you are cracking the top 60 in limited at Nationals, or even at a level 3 match, shooting minor then I might believe you know what you are talking about.  Until then, I'd say the consistent results proving that minor is not competitive at higher level matches speaks volumes more than you beating the same two dudes at your local match each month.

I don't think you can draw that conclusion.  The top 60 would be the top 60 no matter what they use IMO.  If one or all of them went with lim minor, and then did worse, you could make the case then.  But not now.

I don't see the need for any changes.

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6 hours ago, Dutchman195 said:

Getting rid of revolver is a good idea. Merging Revo, SS and L-10 together is a bad idea. Leave single stack alone.

What makes single stack so special?  1911s can shoot 10 rds just like any other large frame magazine fed gun...why do they need their own division?  Why can't the 1911 "sissies" compete against everyone else with 10 rounds?  Revolvers are quite a bit different than anything else and deserve their own division more than single stacks.

 

Why do we need a division for every single type of gun?

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3 minutes ago, DukeEB said:

I don't think you can draw that conclusion.  The top 60 would be the top 60 no matter what they use IMO.  If one or all of them went with lim minor, and then did worse, you could make the case then.  But not now.

I don't see the need for any changes.

Most well informed people are drawing that conclusion.  Even the trolls in this forum admit major has an advantage.  Case has already been made...it is foolish to be in denial about something so obvious.

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Just now, Jeff226 said:

Most well informed people are drawing that conclusion.  Even the trolls in this forum admit major has an advantage.  Case has already been made...it is foolish to be in denial about something so obvious.

You have no case without that step.  All you have are unproven assertions.

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1 minute ago, DukeEB said:

You have no case without that step.  All you have are unproven assertions.

Can't clone people and have them shoot twice.  

 

Data is undeniable...an assertion made by one of the other thinking people in this thread.

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Just now, Jeff226 said:

Can't clone people and have them shoot twice.  

 

Data is undeniable...an assertion made by one of the other thinking people in this thread.

You don't have any data about nationals that proves your assertion.  The mere fact that the top 60 are all shooting major says nothing about minor.

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