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Is major falling out of favor in Limited


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8 minutes ago, Nik Habicht said:

So we should ignore our customer base when making rule changes for divisions.  OK, sure.......

 

And tell me -- what do you hope to achieve by the elimination of Major?  Can you map out the benefit to USPSA, to its members, to future potential members?

If imagine if you read the thread you'd know that I didn't suggest we eliminate major or ignore the current or potential customer base...quite the contrary,  What I hope to achieve and the mapped benefits have been covered...multiple times.  If you want me to answer questions, maybe read what I am saying as opposed to misquoting/misinterpreting my words or giving me credit for other people's posts.

 

Along your line of reason, how is using/defending a scoring formula that makes limited minor mostly non-competitive not ignoring current limited minor customers as well as the ever increasing number of future potential limited minor members who own and would like to shoot full capacity modded 9mm handguns with factory/125 pf ammo?  What is the benefit of handicapping the largest selling handgun caliber in USPSA's largest division?  Where is the logic?

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2 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I'm not picking on you Moto, I just happened to see this as I was browsing old threads for information about something else, but here it is.

 

jlj.JPG

For a big guy like Rob Leatham that can handle recoil, it doesn't make a difference, but for smaller and younger shooter's there is a difference.

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52 minutes ago, bret said:

For a big guy like Rob Leatham that can handle recoil, it doesn't make a difference, but for smaller and younger shooter's there is a difference.

I don't shoot a lot compared to the top guys but with my loads:


Major 40 and 45 in a Trojan 1911 175ish PF

Minor in a Glock 34 or CZ Shadow. 135ish PF

 

They all feel the same. maybe a little difference If I'm on the public range trying to get a 1 hold group at 15 yards slow fire. But the second I actually do something competitive its all a wash. 

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2 minutes ago, Dutchman195 said:

I don't shoot a lot compared to the top guys but with my loads:


Major 40 and 45 in a Trojan 1911 175ish PF

Minor in a Glock 34 or CZ Shadow. 135ish PF

 

They all feel the same. maybe a little difference If I'm on the public range trying to get a 1 hold group at 15 yards slow fire. But the second I actually do something competitive its all a wash. 

I have 2011's in .40 and 9mm, there is a noticeable difference in recoil on a .40 shooting major and a 9mm shooting minor in the same type of gun.

I have a G34 and G35, a lot less recoil when shooting the G34 compared to the G35.

I have 1911's in 9mm, .40 and.45, a lot less recoil in the 9mm than the .40 and.45.

I am 6' 3" 195 lbs, I am sure it is more noticeable with smaller people or people with smaller hands.

 

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On 5/25/2017 at 10:21 AM, rowdyb said:

OK, I'm not trying to fall into a trap here but I do have a question......

 

For guys like Max or Vogel or others at the top who shoot Lim and Prod and are some of the guys setting our HHF for classifiers if .40 major is harder to shoot well than 9 minor then why are the times required for equivalent percent scores of a classifier faster in Lim than Prod?

 

For those with both a Prod and Lim set up are you really slower with a gun shooting major? I'm no super star but for me, my times and hits are almost identical between my Prod gun and my Lim gun. The difference in matches comes down to the effect of capacity and how it effects shooting a stage.

 

Is it harder to shoot a Bill drill, 4 aces, El Pres or any other standard drill with a gun shooting major than minor? It doesn't seem like it, and those guys are often faster.

 

Power factor does have a bearing on your score, without doubt. But does it really effect your shooting and stage times to the point that equals the point differential it currently enjoys?

We have a top 16 type GM that shoots production at our local club.  He took some time and shot Limited Major.  As he put it he can be a bit sloppy with grip and stance shooting minor but not with major.

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1 hour ago, bret said:

I have 2011's in .40 and 9mm, there is a noticeable difference in recoil on a .40 shooting major and a 9mm shooting minor in the same type of gun.

I have a G34 and G35, a lot less recoil when shooting the G34 compared to the G35.

I have 1911's in 9mm, .40 and.45, a lot less recoil in the 9mm than the .40 and.45.

I am 6' 3" 195 lbs, I am sure it is more noticeable with smaller people or people with smaller hands.

 

This is very true.  I shot a friends 9mm 2011, and it felt like there was no recoil at all.  There is definitely a noticeable difference.

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Can't believe this discussion is still going.  Shoot whatever you want and adjust to the scoring.  

 

This discussion is like a guy who wants to get into motorcross and buys a bmx bike.  Shows up to the race and complains that the rules should be changed because he can't keep up.  

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2 minutes ago, aandabooks said:

Can't believe this discussion is still going.  Shoot whatever you want and adjust to the scoring.  

 

This discussion is like a guy who wants to get into motorcross and buys a bmx bike.  Shows up to the race and complains that the rules should be changed because he can't keep up.  

 

^Agreed. Dont like the rules, dont play the game.

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2 hours ago, aandabooks said:

Can't believe this discussion is still going.  Shoot whatever you want and adjust to the scoring.  

 

This discussion is like a guy who wants to get into motorcross and buys a bmx bike.  Shows up to the race and complains that the rules should be changed because he can't keep up.  

 

It isn't at all like that...more fail analogies

 

First, the rules already define 9mm limited, we aren't adding a bmx equivalent (airsoft?, bow and arrow?) to limited.

 

Second, in motocross, 450s and 250s don't race in the same class.  They in theory could with some scoring formula like limited as most people cannot use all of the power in a 450 and some tracks might favor the lighter weight and less tiresome 250s...but in general...450s have an obvious advantage over 250s.  The AMA is intelligent enough to realize that it makes more sense to split significantly different gear into different divisions as opposed to jacking around with some arbitrary point formula. 

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3 hours ago, ktm300 said:

We have a top 16 type GM that shoots production at our local club.  He took some time and shot Limited Major.  As he put it he can be a bit sloppy with grip and stance shooting minor but not with major.

That is contradictory considering you are supposed to overcome the point disadvantage with accuracy.

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1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

That is contradictory considering you are supposed to overcome the point disadvantage with accuracy.

 

I think what he meant was that he could still be accurate and have decent splits shooting minor while being "a bit sloppy with grip and stance" due to 9mm having less recoil.

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1 hour ago, tanks said:

 

I think what he meant was that he could still be accurate and have decent splits shooting minor while being "a bit sloppy with grip and stance" due to 9mm having less recoil.

Pretty sure what he meant was he could shoot the major gun as fast as the minor gun and just as accurate as long as his fundamentals were really good.  When he didn't get a great grip or was in an odd position the major gun was harder to shoot.

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There's always a simple solution -- limit capacity to whatever a 141.25 can hold in .40, and keep major/minor where they are......

 

Want to shoot a 9mm at major -- go for it.  If it chronos above 165, you're good to go.  You may find it a tad unpleasant, and you may find that it's a handicap still, but hey......

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3 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

There's always a simple solution -- limit capacity to whatever a 141.25 can hold in .40, and keep major/minor where they are......

 

Want to shoot a 9mm at major -- go for it.  If it chronos above 165, you're good to go.  You may find it a tad unpleasant, and you may find that it's a handicap still, but hey......


Exactly.  That is a fine solution, but one that I suspect no one complaining about this would want.  

Of course, none of this is about balancing the playing field.  It's about high-cap minor.  This discussion could just as easily be "Is the 10-round limit falling out of favor in Production?".  That's really what this is about -- people wanting to shoot minor with full mags.  And that discussion would even make more sense than this one because it wouldn't be argued with claims of some large pool of people who would start shooting in USPSA if only Limited minor didn't suffer a scoring disadvantage, and without whom USPSA is risking total failure.  :rolleyes:

 

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7 hours ago, IDescribe said:


Of course, none of this is about balancing the playing field.  It's about high-cap minor.  This discussion could just as easily be "Is the 10-round limit falling out of favor in Production?".  That's really what this is about -- people wanting to shoot minor with full mags.  And that discussion would even make more sense than this one because it wouldn't be argued with claims of some large pool of people who would start shooting in USPSA if only Limited minor didn't suffer a scoring disadvantage, and without whom USPSA is risking total failure.  :rolleyes:

 

If thats the case, have an actual production divison and the mag the comes with the gun is what you use. 
You want to shoot your G17 vs my G41 then so be it. Factory everything. If Power factor scoring was still a thing then I bet people would still shoot major. 

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I recently switched from a G34 to a G35 to try Limited Major.

 

My Bill Drill times are about .3s slower.

 

My 25 yard groups at speed opened up.

 

Major is quite a bit less forgiving than minor.

 

Given all that I'm still enjoying it more than Production.

 

The scoring is great.  Stage planning is easier and you can concentrate more on the shooting. 

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2 hours ago, Dutchman195 said:

If thats the case, have an actual production divison and the mag the comes with the gun is what you use. 
You want to shoot your G17 vs my G41 then so be it. Factory everything. If Power factor scoring was still a thing then I bet people would still shoot major. 


We'd end up with a similar situation.  If you let people use whatever mag comes with the gun to that capacity, then you would get complaints about an unbalanced playing field, about how carry pistols weren't competitive anymore and that shooting their carry is why they shoot USPSA to begin with, and how with the new rule everyone needed to shoot a P-09 to be competitive, bla, bla, bla.

 

That would be a legitimate complaint, though.  And a legitimate concern for USPSA.  The USPSA would lose a bunch of people who would go to IDPA-only because they do, in fact, want to practice with their carry pistol.  That's a big enough chunk of people to tailor a division to.  

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If we wanted to look through the forums for discussions of eliminating or increasing the magazine ammunition capacity limit for Production, I'm sure we could find plenty.  


The goal for USPSA should be to have enough divisions for everyone who wants to shoot to be able to shoot, and enough difference and limitations to justify having the different divisions.  USPSA's goal should NOT be to have a division for every combination of parameters people might want to shoot.  That would, as has been said previously in this thread, dilute the divisions.  The truth is that if a Limited Minor division were started, it would get plenty of participants.  The problem is that they wouldn't come from outside USPSA.  The initial majority would come from Production shooters who wanted to shoot their full magazine capacity, and then some chunk would be Limited shooters who wanted to give Lim Minor a try.  It would grow USPSA little to none.  You'd just end up spreading out the best shooters over more divisions and diluting the talent pool in any one division.

Another problem is that if you run a little mental exercise and project Lim Minor forward, you would end up with the best shooters gravitating toward 2011 or other double-stacked 1911 pistols, and those Production shooters who came over to use their production pistols with magazines at full capacity would be faced with the reality of a gear race, and they would end up in the same position as Lim minor shooters today, except that THEY would be a much larger pool of shooters, and a pool much more relevant to USPSA's ongoing success, and we would once again stand around arguing about the need for a high-capacity Production Division.  And since a high-capacity Production division is where this all inevitably ends up anyway, it's probably better to have the conversation based around that to begin with, instead of this ridiculous Limited Minor discussion that far fewer people care about.

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46 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

...a high-capacity Production division is where this all inevitably ends up anyway...

 

If they removed the "optic required" stipulation from CO, you'd already have one.

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On 6/19/2017 at 8:23 AM, rowdyb said:

I'm not picking on you Moto, I just happened to see this as I was browsing old threads for information about something else, but here it is.

 

jlj.JPG

i think that's pretty much what i said in this thread too, right? minor is no speed advantage except in a few unusual situations.

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15 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

There's always a simple solution -- limit capacity to whatever a 141.25 can hold in .40, and keep major/minor where they are......

 

Want to shoot a 9mm at major -- go for it.  If it chronos above 165, you're good to go.  You may find it a tad unpleasant, and you may find that it's a handicap still, but hey......

 

even simpler solution, leave it the way it is. the vast majority of limited shooters like it that way.

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