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Is major falling out of favor in Limited


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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

 

I am not trolling.

 

Are you trying out the other side for a while? :)

 

Major has an advantage. People like it that way. That is not an 11 page discussion.

 

Side note though, was talking to one of the SS shooters at a level 2 match Sunday, he said that a lot of folks were switching from 45 to 40 for major, a bit cheaper, a bit easier on mag springs (8 round limit), no downside. Not sure that I would draw a line from that one data point but I thought it was interesting. 

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Just now, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Major has an advantage. People like it that way. That is not an 11 page discussion.

 

Side note though, was talking to one of the SS shooters at a level 2 match Sunday, he said that a lot of folks were switching from 45 to 40 for major, a bit cheaper, a bit easier on mag springs (8 round limit), no downside. Not sure that I would draw a line from that one data point but I thought it was interesting. 

I've seen this too up here in the northwest.  One of my buddies just got an apeiro ss in 40.  One of our best shooters uses a 40 because it can be loaded to major and to minor (steel for an example)

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3 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Major has an advantage. People like it that way. That is not an 11 page discussion.

 

Side note though, was talking to one of the SS shooters at a level 2 match Sunday, he said that a lot of folks were switching from 45 to 40 for major, a bit cheaper, a bit easier on mag springs (8 round limit), no downside. Not sure that I would draw a line from that one data point but I thought it was interesting. 

I prefer .45 for Single Stack, even though I have .40 Single stacks as well.

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10 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Side note though, was talking to one of the SS shooters at a level 2 match Sunday, he said that a lot of folks were switching from 45 to 40 for major, a bit cheaper, a bit easier on mag springs (8 round limit), no downside. Not sure that I would draw a line from that one data point but I thought it was interesting. 

 

it makes sense if you shoot limited, so you don't have to deal with large primers, scarcer brass, etc... OTOH, if you already own a 45 or 2, it makes sense to just shoot a 45. The lord's own caliber definitely runs better with less muss and fuss (although lots of people have 40's that are flawless after a little muss and fuss).

 

fwiw, a 40 vs 45 singlestack thread is about 198379418273423 times more interesting than a 'newb who wants to change the rules instead of learning to shoot better' thread.

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13 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Major has an advantage. People like it that way. That is not an 11 page discussion.

 

Side note though, was talking to one of the SS shooters at a level 2 match Sunday, he said that a lot of folks were switching from 45 to 40 for major, a bit cheaper, a bit easier on mag springs (8 round limit), no downside. Not sure that I would draw a line from that one data point but I thought it was interesting. 

 

I agree it doesn't require 11 pages.  

 

I sold all of my 45 1911s and I wouldn't mind having one in 40 although I don't expect to go back to single stack.  I have been casually looking for a reasonably priced ramped barrelled 1911...not ready to spend 2-3k on an STI single stack or the like though.

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6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

it makes sense if you shoot limited, so you don't have to deal with large primers, scarcer brass, etc... OTOH, if you already own a 45 or 2, it makes sense to just shoot a 45. The lord's own caliber definitely runs better with less muss and fuss (although lots of people have 40's that are flawless after a little muss and fuss).

 

fwiw, a 40 vs 45 singlestack thread is about 198379418273423 times more interesting than a 'newb who wants to change the rules instead of learning to shoot better' thread.

Dude, I am not a noob and I can shoot better.  I kind of liked the neckbeard slam a little better.

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I guess I'm failing to understand why its even a issue. If you want to shoot minor then shoot minor. If you want to win, go practice. Also not being a great or even average shooter...I'd say that if the people that get paid to do this are shooting and winning with 40, they probably have something figured out. 

 

I look at it as. Few times have I ever seen shooting positions where I need to run the gun to 23(9mm) rounds instead of the 21(40sw). Generally your gonna have to bang a reload somewhere in the stage anyway with either caliber. So....why shoot minor when major is just as acceptable the playing fields are about equal.


Yes industry wide 40 is loosing popularity to 9, but thats outside the competition realm. Cops still carry 9-40-45 and a argument can be made for or against all of them. The average person who buys a gun and shoots a box or two of ammo a month is going to go for cheap/fun which is 9mm 115gr. 

 

A real argument is SS major/minor. 

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17 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Major has an advantage. People like it that way. That is not an 11 page discussion.

 

Side note though, was talking to one of the SS shooters at a level 2 match Sunday, he said that a lot of folks were switching from 45 to 40 for major, a bit cheaper, a bit easier on mag springs (8 round limit), no downside. Not sure that I would draw a line from that one data point but I thought it was interesting. 

 

40 in SS is nice because they make 10 round mags that fit the box. so you can show up to a match and see if its more 10-round friendly, shoot minor with the exact same gun. 
some matches favor 10 round shooting positions so the 8 round guys have to get creative.

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5 hours ago, Dutchman195 said:

 

40 in SS is nice because they make 10 round mags that fit the box. so you can show up to a match and see if its more 10-round friendly, shoot minor with the exact same gun. 
some matches favor 10 round shooting positions so the 8 round guys have to get creative.

 

I thought it was cool when I shot SS that some matches favored minor 10 and some favored major. Besides it was a good excuse to own a second gun.

 

Too bad nobody has ever thought about making limited like that. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I thought it was cool when I shot SS that some matches favored minor 10 and some favored major. Besides it was a good excuse to own a second gun.

 

Too bad nobody has ever thought about making limited like that. 

 

 

We just need more 12 target arrays!

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1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I thought it was cool when I shot SS that some matches favored minor 10 and some favored major. Besides it was a good excuse to own a second gun.

 

 

 

the funny thing is it still doesn't make that much of a difference. I chose exactly the wrong pf in 2 major matches last year. Did well in both matches and running the other PF would not have changed the overall results.

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On 5/25/2017 at 7:21 AM, rowdyb said:

OK, I'm not trying to fall into a trap here but I do have a question......

 

For guys like Max or Vogel or others at the top who shoot Lim and Prod and are some of the guys setting our HHF for classifiers if .40 major is harder to shoot well than 9 minor then why are the times required for equivalent percent scores of a classifier faster in Lim than Prod?

 

For those with both a Prod and Lim set up are you really slower with a gun shooting major? I'm no super star but for me, my times and hits are almost identical between my Prod gun and my Lim gun. The difference in matches comes down to the effect of capacity and how it effects shooting a stage.

 

Is it harder to shoot a Bill drill, 4 aces, El Pres or any other standard drill with a gun shooting major than minor? It doesn't seem like it, and those guys are often faster.

 

Power factor does have a bearing on your score, without doubt. But does it really effect your shooting and stage times to the point that equals the point differential it currently enjoys?

 

Rowdy, for your first point, take a look at HHFs for the 99s. I believe those were before Production division existed, and were obtained by taking Limited HHFs and multiplying them by an arbitrary percent (looks like 95%). Spot checking some of the 13s (most recent) the differential is much, much closer in recent years as Prod guns have developed into DA/SA L10 Minor guns and the talent pool has deepened. For example, 13-07 has a 10.81 HHF for Limited, and a 10.75 HHF in Prod, less than one percent difference. If you look at some of the classifier-ish stages from major matches (Stage 1 of 2014 Nats comes to mind) the top Prod shooter will have a higher HF than the top Limited shooter, or be very, very close to it.

 

As far as my personal experience goes, I don't really shoot a Prod setup, but I spent several months shooting Limited Minor with my standard 40 cal Limited gun a while back. I actually made Master in Limited shooting Minor. For me, it was noticeably easier shooting As with lighter loads, as a lot of the AC, AC, ACs turned into 6As. I was able to get 2As without putting nearly as much emphasis on my grip, and shooting in awkward positions was noticeably easier leaving me free to focus on sight alignment and trigger press.

 

I'll be honest, despite my best efforts I can't shoot a Bill drill any faster in Minor than I can in Major- I believe this is due to my current draw and trigger speed. Out of a Racemaster shooting Major or Minor I have pushed down into the 1.7x range. What I can say is I fail a lot more of those fast Bill drills shooting Major. You have to get your grip perfect and really squeeze the gun to get the major PF gun tracking in the A zone at that speed.

 

Now I don't think minor Vogel would beat major Vogel over the course of a USPSA match, but I think he probably would on a plate rack, or on an average of 5 plate racks. None of the top shooters choose their standard USPSA 40 in Major for three gun. I don't think many (any?) top shooters shoot Major pf ammo in steel challenge outside Open (and even then, I think most shoot reduced loads). So it seems reasonable to me that there is some adjustment for PF. What  would you propose for a more reasonable point differential, none? 3.5 per C?

 

At the end of the day, pick the division/PF you like, and shoot it. I think your thoughts on mag capacity are spot on. If you look at 2014 Nats again, high Prod and high L10 are separated by just over 1% in the Combined Overall. I wouldn't be surprised if the top Prod shooter places above top L10 at this year's Nats. Just my thoughts, and I understand some may disagree.

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Cool thanks. Since I don't have your experience level on this sort of thing I just kind of end up "white boarding" or talking out loud trying to reason things out in real time. Thanks for the info!

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7 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Cool thanks. Since I don't have your experience level on this sort of thing I just kind of end up "white boarding" or talking out loud trying to reason things out in real time. Thanks for the info!

 

I didn't see your question earlier, what with all the noobs and 3-gunners 'tarding up the thread, but I'll share my experience. fwiw, i'm a few percent behind you still, and shoot mostly SS, both minor and major, so the guns are pretty well identical except for pf. I have found that on typical 2-shot-per-target thing, I am pretty much the same speed major vs minor. Accuracy is *slightly* worse shooting major, but the score is better because major. On 1 shot stuff (like steel challenge) I am exactly the same speed major as minor. The one place where minor is a bit better is on 5-6 shot targets like bill drills or can you count or roscoe rattle. I do better on those with minor because i can hold the gun in a-zone easier and just keep pulling the trigger.

 

I have noticed in classifiers that charlies really kill you shooting minor, but shooting major you can really just hold on and go fast. Probably not coincidence but when I switched back to major after over a year of mostly shooting minor, my classifer scores started jumping up so now I'm only 1 decent run away from making M at 55 yrs old. 

 

Now I don't know if I could shoot the same with a glock or other crappy plastic gun, but I do know that when I shoot a garden variety cz75B (no fancy sp01 shadow model) i get the same HF's on drills like el prez and bill drill. But in production it's a significantly higher classification percentage. 

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On 6/13/2017 at 5:11 PM, Jeff226 said:

 

Not breaking top 60 at nationals is a strong indication that minor isn't competitive for good shooters.

Could it be indicative of anything else?  Can you allow for the possibility that not breaking the top 60 at Nats simply indicates that the top 60 shooters in the division looked at the rules for that division, and then chose appropriate gear?

 

Yep -- if the goal is to win Limited at Nats, you ought to bring a .40 and shoot major.  About 10-15 years ago, Matt Burkett hit fifth place, I think, while shooting a 9mm.  I wondered at the time whether or not Sevigny could pull it off, but he was smart enough to bring a .40 every time he tried.  Currently, if Stoeger decided to do it on a lark -- that's a match I'd like to watch. 

 

On the other hand, if you're working your way up, and you cross over from Production or 3Gun, or something else, you can do ok with a 9mm shooting minor, against others in your class, once you learn a couple of things:

1. Shoot mostly Alphas fairly quickly -- if you're in C or B this alone will set you apart.  If you're dropping a lot of Cs and some Ds, this is why you didn't do well in Production.  Fix that.  The only targets where you should be giving up points are movers and head box only targets.

2. Develop your own stage plan -- one that caters to your strengths.  Don't blindly attack the stage the exact same way as everyone else; if you're playing follow the pack, the pack must be shooting the stage in a way that's optimized for your skill level, or there's only one way to shoot the stage -- rare.

3. Plan your reloads -- the extra capacity in the 9mm may allow you to skip a reload on some stages (Anything 20-22 rounds in length for sure) or to throw your reload earlier or later than the rest of the pack -- in a place where you have the most opportune window to get it done on the move.

Most in B & C can't execute these on the level they need; I'd argue that even a number of A class shooters will struggle with 2 out of 3.

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6 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

Could it be indicative of anything else?  Can you allow for the possibility that not breaking the top 60 at Nats simply indicates that the top 60 shooters in the division looked at the rules for that division, and then chose appropriate gear?

 

Yep -- if the goal is to win Limited at Nats, you ought to bring a .40 and shoot major.  About 10-15 years ago, Matt Burkett hit fifth place, I think, while shooting a 9mm.  I wondered at the time whether or not Sevigny could pull it off, but he was smart enough to bring a .40 every time he tried.  Currently, if Stoeger decided to do it on a lark -- that's a match I'd like to watch. 

 

On the other hand, if you're working your way up, and you cross over from Production or 3Gun, or something else, you can do ok with a 9mm shooting minor, against others in your class, once you learn a couple of things:

1. Shoot mostly Alphas fairly quickly -- if you're in C or B this alone will set you apart.  If you're dropping a lot of Cs and some Ds, this is why you didn't do well in Production.  Fix that.  The only targets where you should be giving up points are movers and head box only targets.

2. Develop your own stage plan -- one that caters to your strengths.  Don't blindly attack the stage the exact same way as everyone else; if you're playing follow the pack, the pack must be shooting the stage in a way that's optimized for your skill level, or there's only one way to shoot the stage -- rare.

3. Plan your reloads -- the extra capacity in the 9mm may allow you to skip a reload on some stages (Anything 20-22 rounds in length for sure) or to throw your reload earlier or later than the rest of the pack -- in a place where you have the most opportune window to get it done on the move.

Most in B & C can't execute these on the level they need; I'd argue that even a number of A class shooters will struggle with 2 out of 3.

 

No, it isn't indicative of anything else.  You said it yourself " if the goal is to win Limited at Nats, you ought to bring a .40 and shoot major."  What do you mean "allow for the possibility?"  If "chose the appropriate gear" means "chose 40", then that is the possibility we have been talking about for 12 pages.  

 

None of that text below "you ought to bring .40 and shoot major" matters because it doesn't add up to beating the scoring advantage in major.

 

Edited by Jeff226
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Like I said Burkett came close -- and I don't think anyone's ever made a serious effort since.....

 

The rest of it matters very much -- because the Nats is one match a year, with stages that are tightened down to the point where options aren't always readily available.  

 

Then there are far more members competing in Limited at Area, Sectional, State and local matches each year.  Kinda arrogant to think that all everyone of them cares about is winning the division.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nik Habicht said:

Like I said Burkett came close -- and I don't think anyone's ever made a serious effort since.....

 

The rest of it matters very much -- because the Nats is one match a year, with stages that are tightened down to the point where options aren't always readily available.  

 

Then there are far more members competing in Limited at Area, Sectional, State and local matches each year.  Kinda arrogant to think that all everyone of them cares about is winning the division.  

 

 

It is no surprise that nobody has made a serious attempt since.  The scoring imbalance is across the board...I am using Nationals as the prime example of where the best shooters can't prove otherwise.  I also think you exaggerate the options as the benefit of 23 rds vs 20 rds on a 32 rd long course is hardly noticeable and it is rare (probably more rare than minor at the nationals) to find a match loaded with 23 rd short courses without mandatory reloads.

 

Arrogant?  It is kinda silly to assume an overwhelming majority of people that go to level 2 and up matches aren't hoping to win or be competitive...even more to acknowledge a problem and then talk in circles tripping over your own logic making excuses for it.  Besides, problems with rules and formulas should be addressed without vague interpretations of participant's motivation for competing (key word).

Edited by Jeff226
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So we should ignore our customer base when making rule changes for divisions.  OK, sure.......

 

And tell me -- what do you hope to achieve by the elimination of Major?  Can you map out the benefit to USPSA, to its members, to future potential members?

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