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Is major falling out of favor in Limited


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On 6/14/2017 at 7:28 AM, Jeff226 said:

 

Market = handguns sold overall (not what people bring to USPSA)...there are many times more full capacity 9mms being sold in the market than 40s.  That gap is increasing and will continue to do so.

 

Yes, there are currently more 40s shot in limited than 9mms at the higher level matches because of the scoring advantage.

 

 

 

 

And how many of those 9mms being sold are really competitive in Production? Most guys that want to compete seriously will either get a Glock 34, CZ/Tanfoglio variant for the most part. That is not much different than the guys that want to be competitive in Limited and get a .40 (except maybe the entry price point). 

 

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1 minute ago, tanks said:

 

And how many of those 9mms being sold are really competitive in Production? Most guys that want to compete seriously will either get a Glock 34, CZ/Tanfoglio variant for the most part. That is not much different than the guys that want to be competitive in Limited and get a .40 (except maybe the entry price point). 

 

Any gun shot in production is scored the same.  People can most definitely compete seriously with FNs, Glock 17s, M&Ps and others.

 

This is completely different than having a 25% scoring penalty on Cs and a 50% scoring penalty on Ds simply because you shoot 9mm vs 40 in Limited.  You don't gain that much speed and accuracy on the splits to overcome that scoring difference and the splits are the only time extra recoil should be affecting your shots.  I mean yeah, if you flinch real bad because 40 hurts your tiny man hands it will affect you but that isn't something that should be built into the score.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Any gun shot in production is scored the same.  People can most definitely compete seriously with FNs, Glock 17s, M&Ps and others.

 

This is completely different than having a 25% scoring penalty on Cs and a 50% scoring penalty on Ds simply because you shoot 9mm vs 40 in Limited.  You don't gain that much speed and accuracy on the splits to overcome that scoring difference and the splits are the only time extra recoil should be affecting your shots.  I mean yeah, if you flinch real bad because 40 hurts your tiny man hands it will affect you but that isn't something that should be built into the score.

 

 

DVC

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas
 

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I'm fine with Major in Limited, but that .40cal minimum turns me (and many others) off. I understand the safety issues of shooting 9mm Major in a non-comped gun, but 38 Super would be a no-brainer.

 

It's just my opinion, but although I have loaded .40 in the past, I load 9/38 for 99% of other purposes, sports, divisions, etc and I can't justify it for one division of one sport.  Bianchi (3 divisions), Steel Challenge, PPC, USPSA Production/Single-Stack/Open, 3-gun, Bullseye CF, etc are all 9mm and 38 Super for me, with 45 for SS and Bullseye sometimes.  40 cal is the only turn off for me due to component compatibility when I'm loading tens of thousands of rounds on my main machine (auto'd 1050).  If it weren't for that, I would be a serious Limited shooter since I am a fairly successful iron sight 1911/2011 shooter in other sports

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Just now, bret said:

DVC

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas
 

I didn't see that typed 100 times over either...thank you for the new info.

 

The scoring advantage to balance DVC is broken.  The arbitrary 1 point difference given to major back when everybody was shooting 1911s and hi powers because hi powers had almost double the capacity and major power factor was 175 or higher is now out of alignment with DVC.  Why is that so hard to understand? 

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Just now, Jeff226 said:

I didn't see that typed 100 times over either...thank you for the new info.

 

The scoring advantage to balance DVC is broken.  The arbitrary 1 point difference given to major back when everybody was shooting 1911s and hi powers because hi powers had almost double the capacity and major power factor was 175 or higher is now out of alignment with DVC.  Why is that so hard to understand? 

You keep whining about Minor, so yes you will hear the same responses to your whining.

If you don't like Major/Minor scoring in Limited, shoot in another division.

Bring it up with your area director and see if you can change the rule if you don't like it.

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4 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I didn't see that typed 100 times over either...thank you for the new info.

 

The scoring advantage to balance DVC is broken.  The arbitrary 1 point difference given to major back when everybody was shooting 1911s and hi powers because hi powers had almost double the capacity and major power factor was 175 or higher is now out of alignment with DVC.  Why is that so hard to understand? 

It's not hard to understand what you're trying to get across, but you are failing at convincing anybody.

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4 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I didn't see that typed 100 times over either...thank you for the new info.

 

The scoring advantage to balance DVC is broken.  The arbitrary 1 point difference given to major back when everybody was shooting 1911s and hi powers because hi powers had almost double the capacity and major power factor was 175 or higher is now out of alignment with DVC.  Why is that so hard to understand? 

 

Your opinion.

 

IMO Limited is fine as is. Limited and Open are the only divisions that don't have something that i wish was different in the rules. But I'll shoot other divisions and not ask for a new special divisions that are just for me.

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Just now, DukeEB said:

It's not hard to understand what you're trying to get across, but you are failing at convincing anybody.

Most already know, they don't need to be convinced.  I get the people that don't care...that makes sense.  I am mostly amused with the ones that play dumb.

 

About 10 more posts and I can sell a clue.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Your opinion.

 

IMO Limited is fine as is. Limited and Open are the only divisions that don't have something that i wish was different in the rules. But I'll shoot other divisions and not ask for a new special divisions that are just for me.

Of course is fine for you.  You shoot major and probably like having some people shooting minor below you in the results.  That is understandable...some people need ego boosts like that.  I am fine with you having that opinion.

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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

Of course is fine for you.  You shoot major and probably like having some people shooting minor below you in the results.  That is understandable...some people need ego boosts like that.  I am fine with you having that opinion.

Not many people are shooting Minor in Limited.

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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

Of course is fine for you.  You shoot major and probably like having some people shooting minor below you in the results.  That is understandable...some people need ego boosts like that.  I am fine with you having that opinion.

 

I don't care what other people shoot. Last match I shot even I was scored minor I still would of won HOA. 2nd place would of been a few % closer, that's all.

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Just now, bret said:

Not many people are shooting Minor in Limited.

Because of the scoring advantage for major...we covered that numerous times.

 

A larger percentage of people shoot minor at level 1 matches.  There would most likely be more shooting minor if the scoring wasn't broken.  That was covered too.

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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

I don't care what other people shoot. Last match I shot even I was scored minor I still would of won HOA. 2nd place would of been a few % closer, that's all.

If that makes you happy at your local match that is great.  Some people care about larger matches and the sport overall.

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9 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

The guy that types redundant acronyms is less boring than that.

Well, you seem surprised or frustrated that many, many people like the rules of the single most popular division in USPSA as they are, and that many people believe that the original, founding concept of USPSA requiring a balance of power with speed and accuracy still has merit.  If you wanted to hear your own views echoed, you probably should have found a different group of people to discuss this with.  I'm sure that a bunch of IDPA shooters will happily nod along with your sentiment that 9mm is now best millimeter and that anything else is dumb and certainly shouldn't be rewarded.  

 

As for the extra recoil being a non-factor... I have seen many shooters who have been shooting 9mm from day one in production pick up a major-PF gun, shoot it, and concede, "OK, yeah, that is a little different..."   Maybe that's not materially different for very strong shooters with excellent recoil control.  This sport is not composed soley - nor even primarily - of very strong shooters with excellent recoil control.  For the B's and C's and D's that make up most of any match, the extra recoil does have an impact on their performance. 

 

Again, if you don't want to hear that opinion, you will probably need to find another audience.  

Edited by ATLDave
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Just now, Jeff226 said:

If that makes you happy at your local match that is great.  Some people care about larger matches and the sport overall.

 

Last major I shot it would of dropped me from 3rd to 4th in limited.

 

Most guys who shoot majors take the game more seriously and will get the proper gear for the division they shoot. That isn't the random guy you're talking about that isn't happy with USPSA because he can only shoot a 9mm.

 

You're new L-minor division wont grow the sport or help the division

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24 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Well, you seem surprised or frustrated that many, many people like the rules of the single most popular division in USPSA as they are, and that many people believe that the original, founding concept of USPSA requiring a balance of power with speed and accuracy still has merit.  If you wanted to hear your own views echoed, you probably should have found a different group of people to discuss this with.  I'm sure that a bunch of IDPA shooters will happily nod along with your sentiment that 9mm is now best millimeter and that anything else is dumb and certainly shouldn't be rewarded.  

 

As for the extra recoil being a non-factor... I have seen many shooters who have been shooting 9mm from day one in production pick up a major-PF gun, shoot it, and concede, "OK, yeah, that is a little different..."   Maybe that's not materially different for very strong shooters with excellent recoil control.  This sport is not composed soley - nor even primarily - of very strong shooters with excellent recoil control.  For the B's and C's and D's that make up most of any match, the extra recoil does have an impact on their performance. 

This is more interesting.

 

First off, I joined a conversation already in progress and there are people in this thread and many others I have read here and other places over the past 15 years or more that agree.

 

Second, the band of trolls that are clinging to this thread aren't exactly representative of a majority of USPSA shooters although I will concede that most go along and have a 40 caliber, myself included.

 

For your last point, that makes sense providing the speed power accuracy formula is correct.  If the scoring advantage can't be made up, the fact that it can't is generally accepted by many shooters (more knowledgeable and talented than the gang of local b class shooters), then why pretend there is still some illusion of DVC in limited?  

Edited by Jeff226
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11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You're new L-minor division wont grow the sport or help the division

That is something you can't prove.  Clinging to a bad formula and propping up a declining caliber isn't likely to grow or help the sport either.

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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

That is something you can't prove.  Clinging to a bad formula and propping up a declining caliber isn't likely to grow or help the sport either.

 

47 posts, and still trolling :) 

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On 6/14/2017 at 8:00 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I think you need to concede the point that major has a significant advantage. The data is overwhelming. 

 

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

47 posts, and still trolling :) 

I am not trolling.

 

Are you trying out the other side for a while? :)

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