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Is major falling out of favor in Limited


Majja

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18 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Market = handguns sold overall (not what people bring to USPSA)...there are many times more full capacity 9mms being sold in the market than 40s.  That gap is increasing and will continue to do so.

 

 

 

 

Okay so shoot production. Have you seen the production list lately? It encompasses all of the popular handguns on the market. Hell it's nearly 7 pages worth of guns.

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4 minutes ago, bret said:

What are you shooting? 

 

At IPSC my .40 chrono'd 185 PF, at Optics Nationals my Open gun Chrono'd 186.9 PF.

 

There is quite a bit of difference shooting 165 PF, and 125 PF. 

 

When I shoot minor it seems slow and sluggish, not much recoil.

 

 

I shoot factory 40 which chronos similar to yours or higher and I shoot factory 9mm  which is in the 130 range.  Even with factory ammo, there is a difference but hardly enough on the splits to justify the point advantage.

 

165 pf is not a lot of recoil.  

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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

I shoot factory 40 which chronos similar to yours or higher and I shoot factory 9mm  which is in the 130 range.  Even with factory ammo, there is a difference but hardly enough on the splits to justify the point advantage.

 

165 pf is not a lot of recoil.  

Factory .40 is not near 185 PF, 165 grain won't even make Major in many guns.

 

I don't think you understand the reason for the power factor scoring.

 

If you are shooting. 40 now, why make a minor division in limited?

 

There is quite a bit more recoil with a 2011 shooting major and minor.

 

The reason Ashley shoots Minor is because she is small and has small hands, she can't handle to constant recoil of major and she was shooting an Infinity,  which is a heavy gun, she shot Minor at Nationals, placed 63rd.

 

She went head to head with everyone else and shot Minor, which is a disadvantage on points, but she may be faster and more accurate with a 9mm.

 

If you want to shoot 9mm and not worry about Major/Minor scoring, shoot PCC, Carry Optics, or Production.

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18 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

I think there's a fairly obvious solution:

Expand the divisions to include separate major and minor divisions of Prod-10, Production, Prod-Optic, Lim-10, Limited, Limited Optic, Mostly Open-10, Open, Revo, Revo-Optic, Single Stack, Really Expensive Single Stack, PCC-10, PCC, PCC-Open, and PCC-Heavy Metal, and then everyone would be happy... except that largely untapped demographic of .22 owners without whom the USPSA Limited division is really suffering.  :rolleyes:

PCC-Heavy Metal!!  That's the division I want to play in!  Rock on!!!

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The number of 9mm sold really doesn't matter for our sport. Most gun owners don't shoot much let alone compete. And of those that compete not many are really concerned with winning. But, to play your game most of those guns fit perfectly into production, so you should be lobbying to allow higher capacity in production.

 

These 9mm 2011 guys who don't shoot USPSA because they can't win are a extremely small number and it would be silly for us to change rules to accommodate them. They're mostly going to be 3 gunners who typically shoot sub minor loads and just have to hit the target.

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18 minutes ago, bret said:

Factory .40 is not near 185 PF, 165 grain won't even make Major in many guns.

 

I don't think you understand the reason for the power factor scoring.

 

If you are shooting. 40 now, why make a minor division in limited?

 

There is quite a bit more recoil with a 2011 shooting major and minor.

 

The reason Ashley shoots Minor is because she is small and has small hands, she can't handle to constant recoil of major and she was shooting an Infinity,  which is a heavy gun, she shot Minor at Nationals, placed 63rd.

 

She went head to head with everyone else and shot Minor, which is a disadvantage on points, but she may be faster and more accurate with a 9mm.

 

If you want to shoot 9mm and not worry about Major/Minor scoring, shoot PCC, Carry Optics, or Production.

 

Speer makes several 40s that are around 185 pf.  The 180 gr lawman is close and the hotter 165 gr load exceeds 185.  They make a lighter 165 that is somewhat hard to find that falls in the 165-170 range depending on barrel length.

 

I perfectly understand the reason for power factor scoring.  In theory, 165 pf ammo is harder to shoot than 125 pf ammo so you get a 1 pt advantage outside the A zone.  In actuality, that point advantage is too generous.

 

Because we all know that minor isn't competitive because of the scoring imbalance.

 

Recoil is subjective, some people make more of an issue about it than others

 

She most likely should have placed higher but the scoring disadvantage put her at 63.  As fast and accurate as she is, even she can't overcome the scoring imbalance

 

I'd rather fix limited division as it allows mods and full capacity magazines.  Did you not see that suggestion typed about 30 times previously by the other people that missed the point?

Edited by Jeff226
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5 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Speer makes several 40s that are around 185 pf.  The 180 gr lawman is close and the hotter 165 gr load exceeds 185.  They make a lighter 165 that is somewhat hard to find that falls in the 165-170 range depending on barrel length.

 

I perfectly understand the reason for power factor scoring.  In theory, 165 pf ammo is harder to shoot than 125 pf ammo so you get a 1 pt advantage outside the A zone.  In actuality, that point advantage is too generous.

 

Because we all know that minor isn't competitive because of the scoring imbalance.

 

Recoil is subjective, some people make more of an issue about it than others

 

She most likely should have placed higher but the scoring disadvantage put her at 63.  As fast and accurate as she is, even she can't overcome the scoring imbalance

 

I'd rather fix limited division as it allows mods and full capacity magazines.  Did you not see that suggestion typed about 30 times previously by the other people that missed the point?

Jeezus, Jeff, either you simply enjoy douchebaggery or you really need to consider another hobby.  Or buy a therapy puppy. Shoot what you want but Limited scoring is not changing  despite how proud you are of your flawless logic 

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27 minutes ago, Balakay said:

 Shoot what you want but Limited scoring is not changing  

Pretty much this, and for a good reason. thousands upon thousands of limited shooters are happy the way it is, and 1 or 2 noobs from 3gun are sad because they can't be accurate even with sub-minor loads.

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58 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

I'd rather fix limited division as it allows mods and full capacity magazines.  Did you not see that suggestion typed about 30 times previously by the other people that missed the point?

 

Limited doesn't need to be fixed. That's what 30+ other posts are saying.  

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Jeezus, Jeff, either you simply enjoy douchebaggery or you really need to consider another hobby.  Or buy a therapy puppy. Shoot what you want but Limited scoring is not changing  despite how proud you are of your flawless logic 

Curling may be the sport for you!


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4 minutes ago, Scott Steele said:

May have yo find out. Does anyone know what they weigh?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Wikipedia says 17-20 kg, or average 284,000 grains.  At 1 fps, wouldn't that be a PF of 284?  Heavy metal (or rock, as it were)!

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1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

 

She most likely should have placed higher but the scoring disadvantage put her at 63.  As fast and accurate as she is, even she can't overcome the scoring imbalance

 

But would she? or would she have shot the same speed less accurately? or faster and way less accurately? you Can't draw conclusions by just assuming someone will shoot exactingly the same match, speed and accuracy 

 

Yes most top shooters shoot 40 

Yes Major scores better on non A hits

 

those are the facts you have to work with, unless you have results from top shooters shooting the same match both in minor and major you are only guessing what their results would be, and re-calculating their scores to minor will not show you how they would have placed, only how they would have placed if they went sub minor at chrono after shooting their last stage. I know when I shoot a Major PF gun I let myself call way more bad shots than I do shooting Minor, But I'm just a B class scrub so top shooters probably don't alter their emphasis based on the PF they are shooting.

 

 

I'm not arguing that Major in 40 is a better choice for Limited, but I am saying that I don't think the difference is anywhere near as big as everyone seems to assume it is. 

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1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

But would she? or would she have shot the same speed less accurately? or faster and way less accurately? you Can't draw conclusions by just assuming someone will shoot exactingly the same match, speed and accuracy 

 

those are the facts you have to work with, unless you have results from top shooters shooting the same match both in minor and major you are only guessing what their results would be, and re-calculating their scores to minor will not show you how they would have placed, only how they would have placed if they went sub minor at chrono after shooting their last stage.

 

I'm not arguing that Major in 40 is a better choice for Limited, but I am saying that I don't think the difference is anywhere near as big as everyone seems to assume it is

 

Exactly the conclusion I've reached as well.  If we look at a real scoring hypothetical instead of making assumptions, we can imagine that we might pick up an extra 3-8 points per stage on average (depending on stage length), from minor to major.  

 

Even if the shooter's times were identical, which is unlikely, it's the difference of collecting, say 150 instead of 140 points out of a possible 160 (that's 32 rounds fired with 22 alpha, 10 charlie - thats approx. 30% charlies).  Doing that on say a 20 second stage, still puts you at only 6.xx% difference in score...with the same time shot.  Yes, 6% is a lot, of course, but it isn't the world ending difference that it's being described as insofar as that new shooters can't come over and compete in the division fairly...even if we say the shooter could only improve speed by 1 second utilizing minor ammo, that immediately takes that 6% and drops it to less than 2%.  1 second in split times over 16 targets by dropping down to minor PF...that's believable to me...not to mention the extra few rounds might make the reload timing better on a stage, or not needed, and that on steel arrays, theoretically the 9mm has an advantage as all scoring hits count for the same, etc.

 

All that said, I shoot major in USPSA...I believe it provides a marginal advantage for me...and I'll take every fraction of advantage I can.  But hey, if I'm going to a falling steel match, you better believe I'm shooting the 9mm.  

Edited by GorillaTactical
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23 minutes ago, GorillaTactical said:

 

Exactly the conclusion I've reached as well.  If we look at a real scoring hypothetical instead of making assumptions, we can imagine that we might pick up an extra 3-8 points per stage on average (depending on stage length), from minor to major.  

 

Even if the shooter's times were identical, which is unlikely, it's the difference of collecting, say 150 instead of 140 points out of a possible 160 (that's 32 rounds fired with 22 alpha, 10 charlie - thats approx. 30% charlies).  Doing that on say a 20 second stage, still puts you at only 6.xx% difference in score...with the same time shot.  Yes, 6% is a lot, of course, but it isn't the world ending difference that it's being described as insofar as that new shooters can't come over and compete in the division fairly...even if we say the shooter could only improve speed by 1 second utilizing minor ammo, that immediately takes that 6% and drops it to less than 2%.  1 second in split times over 16 targets by dropping down to minor PF...that's believable to me...not to mention the extra few rounds might make the reload timing better on a stage, or not needed, and that on steel arrays, theoretically the 9mm has an advantage as all scoring hits count for the same, etc.

 

All that said, I shoot major in USPSA...I believe it provides a marginal advantage for me...and I'll take every fraction of advantage I can.  But hey, if I'm going to a falling steel match, you better believe I'm shooting the 9mm.  

 

This seams reasonable, I've looked at some of my scores when shooting Major and would of dropped about 5% and finish the same. I checked the winner of a recent Area match and he would of dropped 5% too. At that match 5% would of put him in 3rd instead of 1st. But, like you're pointing out that is assuming he couldn't go any faster shooting minor, and the few rounds of capacity wont help either. On top of that you would have to assume that even with less recoil at the same speed he wouldn't pick up any more Alpha's.

 

I don't think anyone will argue that 40 Major isn't the ideal set up for limited, but the difference isn't nearly as severe as some make it out to be. If you change the rules it will just make something else ideal, and everyone will have to sell their shit and switch to new gear. Or we add another division so if there is to much heat in L-10, dudes can switch to L-Minor FTMFW.

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Actually the difference I have seen in high level shooters shooting minor is not so much going faster, its shooting more A's, They know they can't afford to drop the points so they don't, often at the cost of a slower run but sometimes that slower run with more As still has a higher hit factor.  (and yes I have seen a high level shooter shoot Limited Minor)

 

Much like SS the relative disadvantage of minor scoring varies depending on stage and target layout. if there are a bunch of hard partial targets with no shoots or lots of head shots then Major has a larger advantage, if the targets are more open the advantage is less. 

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35 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Actually the difference I have seen in high level shooters shooting minor is not so much going faster, its shooting more A's, They know they can't afford to drop the points so they don't, often at the cost of a slower run but sometimes that slower run with more As still has a higher hit factor.  (and yes I have seen a high level shooter shoot Limited Minor)

 

Much like SS the relative disadvantage of minor scoring varies depending on stage and target layout. if there are a bunch of hard partial targets with no shoots or lots of head shots then Major has a larger advantage, if the targets are more open the advantage is less. 

 

Don't disagree at all...always two ways to look at HF...go faster or be more accurate.  When you're losing more points for your accuracy deficiencies, the cost benefit is probably weighted towards shooting more alpha's opposed to trying to go faster...just using the example to demonstrate the point either way...but practically speaking, 100% agree.

 

With respect to the bolded portion...couldn't agree more!

Edited by GorillaTactical
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