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Is major falling out of favor in Limited


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Just now, Jeff226 said:

You disagree with it, use your impressive intelligence and find something that disproves my claim.  I am not running history classes in the Brian Enos forum.

I totally understand, you don't have anything that proves your claim.  No worries :)

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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

You disagree with it, use your impressive intelligence and find something that disproves my claim.  I am not running history classes in the Brian Enos forum.

I would put the burden of proof on the one who made the claim. But that's just me.

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Yeah this minor thing is hard! I beat about half the Open & Limited field at Double Tap this weekend, shooting minor in Production. I sure wish there was a place I could load my gun to capacity or use extended mags so I'm at less of an advantage.

 

 

Did I mention I kinda suck? B class production shooter.... where's my man shaped pillow to cry upon...

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19 hours ago, motosapiens said:

for a 3-gun shooter the difference may be more dramatic, since those guys usually hit lots of charlies and deltas.

 

Savage 

 

In all seriousness, the percent you move from one scoring to another is marginal at best.  I too have seen only a percent shift of 1-5% at best if I calculate it out over recent matches.  Now, 5% at a major match is a lot...but to suggest that this is some barrier to entry into the sport...or that good shooters cant come over from 3 gun and compete because of it, is just hilarious. 

Edited by GorillaTactical
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14 minutes ago, GorillaTactical said:

 

Savage 

 

In all seriousness, the percent you move from one scoring to another is marginal at best.  I too have seen only a percent shift of 1-5% at best if I calculate it out over recent matches.  Now, 5% at a major match is a lot...but to suggest that this is some barrier to entry into the sport...or that good shooters cant come over and compete because of it is just hilarious. 

 

Not breaking top 60 at nationals is a strong indication that minor isn't competitive for good shooters.

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50 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Not breaking top 60 at nationals is a strong indication that minor isn't competitive for good shooters.

 

Let's say the winner at nationals shot minor...would that drop him to 61st?  No...it might have moved him to like 5th.  That's still mighty competitive...it's just not seizing every single advantage.  

 

My point is, the average shooter at your local match does not feel an effect...we talk about major like if you aren't shooting major, you might as well have a nerf gun...it's just not true.  Further, I'd be willing to bet that the best shooters at your local match would still be at the top of the heap if they were shooting minor exclusively.

Edited by GorillaTactical
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2 minutes ago, GorillaTactical said:

 

My point is, the average shooter at your local match does not feel an effect.

 

It shows up on where I finish, and I'm a lowly knuckle dragging B class shooter. The extra pain for C's and D's adds up fast. 

 

Another reason why production class is more fun :) . 

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Just now, IHAVEGAS said:

 

It shows up on where I finish, and I'm a lowly knuckle dragging B class shooter. The extra pain for C's and D's adds up fast. 

 

Another reason why production class is more fun :) . 

 

What percentage difference are you seeing for the same times and hits within your scores?

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11 minutes ago, GorillaTactical said:

 

Let's say the winner at nationals shot minor...would that drop him to 61st?  No...it might have moved him to like 5th.  That's still mighty competitive...it's just not seizing every single advantage.  

 

My point is, the average shooter at your local match does not feel an effect...we talk about major like if you aren't shooting major, you might as well have a nerf gun...it's just not true.  Further, the best shooters at your local match would still be at the top of the heap if they were shooting minor.

In your opinion that is "mighty competitive"...to me it looks like the obvious difference between winning or not.  The top 60 drop far fewer shots than the average local guy...so yes, while the local guy isn't shooting for prizes...his score will obviously be affected more than someone who can expect almost all As.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

The top 60 drop far fewer shots than the average local guy.

 

 

 

It's all a product of speed.  Maybe they do, maybe they don't...how fast is the local guy shooting?  It's conjecture until you determine that.  For example, I just pulled up my last local match results.  I shot about 82% alphas (shooting maj).  I also just pulled up the open nats and grabbed cody's hit breakdown for major scoring.  He only shot about 72% alphas.  Brad, in 3rd, only shot 69% alphas...Now that doesn't prove anything necessarily, just that your general assessment is not always correct.

 

Unless Moto has it right, and the people you're shooting with just can't hit the target, then it's all a product of understanding how to balance speed and accuracy.  The best shooters will still be the best regardless of what they are shooting.  You might be able to improve marginally (a few percent) without changing anything else, by switching to major, but shooting minor doesn't suddenly put you in a position where you can't win your local match or otherwise be competitive...I'd position that if we all spent the time it took to read through this thread, and put it towards dry fire, we'd be in a much better position :rolleyes:

 

And yes, finishing 5th at Nationals would put you in the "very-freaking-competitive" column of the chart.

 

Edited by GorillaTactical
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I did a test this weekend that plays right along this "what IS competitive" conversation.

 

I shot Production (I'm a decent B production shooter 4th B at A1) with a borrowed Ruger P89 I had never touched before the match, I used a Serpa holster (with the lock disabled) on a regular leather belt and some Uncle Mikes double mag pouches. I wanted to see how shooting basically the crappiest gun I could borrow with no practice on it at all would affect my scores. in the end it turned out I had handicapped myself more than I thought when the Ruger had a serious hammer follow problem so it went randomly form SA to DA throughout the stages. how did this joke end? Shooting a malfunctioning gun with horrible ergonomics and a stupid sliding mag release that I never did get to go smoothly, left me 4th in production and first B behind 2 Ms and an A, I am sure I would have done better with my regular gear, heck I would have done better if I spent 20 min dryfiring the gun I shot, but probably not enough to win. 

 

Moral of the story, Major, Minor, Good Gun, Bad Gun (that runs), if you think you are not winning because of your gear you are most likely wrong.

 

 

 

 

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I think another problem with Jeff's way of thinking is that he seems to be assuming that buying new guns is a bad thing. Perhaps he is my ex-wife... IMHO, the whole point is to buy MORE guns, so we should be taking extra efforts to be LESS compatible with the sports of non-serious pistol shooters. They will be attracted to USPSA both by the vastly increased level of skill and competition, AND by the opportunity to buy a new gun. win-win.

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1 hour ago, GorillaTactical said:

 

What percentage difference are you seeing for the same times and hits within your scores?

 

I do not really understand the question, but, a small difference in match % is often the difference between who gets bragging rights among the group I tend to measure my match against. 

 

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2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I did a test this weekend that plays right along this "what IS competitive" conversation.

 

I shot Production (I'm a decent B production shooter 4th B at A1) with a borrowed Ruger P89 I had never touched before the match, I used a Serpa holster (with the lock disabled) on a regular leather belt and some Uncle Mikes double mag pouches. I wanted to see how shooting basically the crappiest gun I could borrow with no practice on it at all would affect my scores. in the end it turned out I had handicapped myself more than I thought when the Ruger had a serious hammer follow problem so it went randomly form SA to DA throughout the stages. how did this joke end? Shooting a malfunctioning gun with horrible ergonomics and a stupid sliding mag release that I never did get to go smoothly, left me 4th in production and first B behind 2 Ms and an A, I am sure I would have done better with my regular gear, heck I would have done better if I spent 20 min dryfiring the gun I shot, but probably not enough to win. 

 

Moral of the story, Major, Minor, Good Gun, Bad Gun (that runs), if you think you are not winning because of your gear you are most likely wrong.

 

 

 

 

The bigger moral is that you probably shouldn't draw morals from the personal experience of one B shooter at a local match with such thin competition that he can finish 4th in production with a broken borrowed gun.  

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34 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

The bigger moral is that you probably shouldn't draw morals from the personal experience of one B shooter at a local match with such thin competition that he can finish 4th in production with a broken borrowed gun.  

This seems reasonable.

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5 minutes ago, teros135 said:

No, it isn't.  It's "single-subject" research with real data, which is far better than unsupported assertions and straw-man arguments.  

I shoot major in limited for what it's worth.

I do enjoy shooting minor in single stack though.

 

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19 minutes ago, davidb72 said:

I shoot major in limited for what it's worth.

I do enjoy shooting minor in single stack though.

 

In singlestack it's a much more interesting discussion, with real trade-offs and decisions, instead of just the butthurt of 3 gun pansies that can't shoot accurately AND can't handle major recoil. In uspsa you have to choose one; hose and have fewer rounds, or be a bit more precise and have more rounds. It is what makes uspsa shooters more sophisticated and attractive and gets us all the hot chicks. :cheers:

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29 minutes ago, teros135 said:

No, it isn't.  It's "single-subject" research with real data, which is far better than unsupported assertions and straw-man arguments.  

 

So some random dudes story about his local match is a better sample than the published results of the whole year's nationals where people who are actually serious about winning (they don't bring borrowed broken guns) not so surprisingly shoot limited minor in very small numbers and those that do rarely finish in the top 60 because of a scoring advantage for major caliber left over from the 80s??

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

 

So some random dudes story about his local match is a better sample than the published results of the whole year's nationals where people who are actually serious about winning (they don't bring borrowed broken guns) not so surprisingly shoot limited minor in very small numbers and those that do rarely finish in the top 60 because of a scoring advantage for major caliber left over from the 80s??

 

 

 

so essentially you're saying that all good shooters shoot major and don't whine about it? Sounds like we have common ground. group hug! Only 26 more posts and you can sell your crappy 9mm gun!

Edited by motosapiens
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