Is major falling out of favor in Limited

[OPENB]

I started in USPSA, switched to mostly 3 gun, and now back to mostly USPSA. Scoring was not a factor in any of it. 

I don't see major/40 becoming obsolete ever. Too much investment made in equipment in the last 20+ years. Kinda like production, it's fine, don't !@#$ with it. Nothing prevents limited minor with a 23 round mag. If you think it's an advantage, good on ya. Prove it. I've been wrong before. Be kinda cool to see the Nats won with a limited minor gun. I won't hold my breath.

[Gooldylocks]

12 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

In that case, why have a classification system at all?

 

;-)

Your trolling has gone dramatically down hill 

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

In that case, why have a classification system at all?

 

;-)

it's just a self-esteem thing. IPSC apparently does fine without it.

[motosapiens]

22 hours ago, Pistolpete9 said:

I have said it before and I still believe it.  Either USPSA will make a change to get rid of the scoring disparity between .40 and 9mm or shooters will eventually leave it for a different game.  9mm is the most popular handgun round and for good reason.  .40 offers very little advantage in the real world and it makes no sense to penalize those who acknowledge that.

 

why wouldn't the sissies who can't handle 40 just shoot carry optics or production divisions, where 40 has no advantage and 9mm is the most popular round by far?

 

Since people have a choice, and the majority seem to choose 40 (limited division), perhaps you are entirely wrong......

Edited May 31, 2017 by motosapiens

[Pistolpete9]

Agreed that I could be entirely wrong.  You have a good argument that Carry Optics could end up becoming huge and taking a lot of the Limited group away.  I think the "sissies" who "can't handle" the amazingly effective and powerful .40 but can manage the pathetic and anemic 9mm are perhaps going to change the sport over the course of the next several years.  I could definitely be wrong.

However, you aren't the first here to try and point to what it is currently happen in order to try to debunk what I guessed would happen in the future.  That's a little bit like saying the U.S is the most powerful country on the planet currently and so it will be 10 years from now too.  I'm trying to look past the current situation in order to figure out where we're going.

Again though, I'm willing to admit that it's just a guess.  If someone is getting into shooting today though, they will likely look at the ammo trend (away from .40) and figure out how to have a lot of fun without getting into that round.  After they decide that they like going fast and having custom equipment, they would likely skip over .40 and go with an Open round.  That's what would make the most sense with the current situation (in my opinion).

The fact that so many are so staunchly set on the fact that Limited Major can't possibly be changing any time in the future is embarrassingly short-sighted.  You need not look too far in the rearview mirror to see an awful lot of USPSA changes.  Look at how the revolver guys have had to switch gears in the last few years to account for that puny little 9mm.  Who would've seen that coming in the revolver division?

Edited May 31, 2017 by Pistolpete9

[waktasz]

Nobody cares about revolvers, dude.

You are proposing major changes to one of the most popular divisions. I would be fine with allowing Lim minor to have 170mm mags so you wouldn't feel so disadvantaged, but making all the current guns obsolete overnight would be a good way for Foley to get coup'd.

Edited May 31, 2017 by waktasz

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, Pistolpete9 said:

The fact that so many are so staunchly set on the fact that Limited Major is embarrassingly short-sighted.  You need not look too far in the rearview mirror to see an awful lot of USPSA changes.  Look at how the revolver guys have had to switch gears in the last few years to account for that puny little 9mm.  Who would've seen that coming in the revolver division?

 

revolver is not even a thing.

 

If change is needed, it will happen. When numbers in limited start to steeply decline, it will make sense to care about it. Right now it ain't broke, so don't fix it.

 

 

[Pistolpete9]

Ha!  On both of those points, we agree!

[Edmooberry]

This thread was an interesting use of my lunch break.

 

I don't move very fast.  It's just not much of an option for me.  Because of that, I have to shoot fast to stay competitive.  With minor scoring, I have to shoot fast AND have really good hits.  With major scoring, I have to shoot fast and have pretty decent hits.  For this reason, I take advantage of major scoring.  I understand my limitations and go by the rules set by USPSA to try and achieve the most competitive platform that I can.  I don't think major is going anywhere for quite some time!

[DukeEB]

1 hour ago, Pistolpete9 said:

Agreed that I could be entirely wrong.  You have a good argument that Carry Optics could end up becoming huge and taking a lot of the Limited group away.  I think the "sissies" who "can't handle" the amazingly effective and powerful .40 but can manage the pathetic and anemic 9mm are perhaps going to change the sport over the course of the next several years.  I could definitely be wrong.

However, you aren't the first here to try and point to what it is currently happen in order to try to debunk what I guessed would happen in the future.  That's a little bit like saying the U.S is the most powerful country on the planet currently and so it will be 10 years from now too.  I'm trying to look past the current situation in order to figure out where we're going.

Again though, I'm willing to admit that it's just a guess.  If someone is getting into shooting today though, they will likely look at the ammo trend (away from .40) and figure out how to have a lot of fun without getting into that round.  After they decide that they like going fast and having custom equipment, they would likely skip over .40 and go with an Open round.  That's what would make the most sense with the current situation (in my opinion).

The fact that so many are so staunchly set on the fact that Limited Major can't possibly be changing any time in the future is embarrassingly short-sighted.  You need not look too far in the rearview mirror to see an awful lot of USPSA changes.  Look at how the revolver guys have had to switch gears in the last few years to account for that puny little 9mm.  Who would've seen that coming in the revolver division?

I think that CO is a step for people with vision issues and also for people who want open without a lot of cost.  I don't think it's taking shooters away from limited because of ammo or fun factors.  40 is actually very nearly as cheap as 9.  CO is minor scoring only, so cost doesn't enter into the equation for usage IMHO.

[Racinready300ex]

I shot revolver and don't even care about revolver. No one shoots it, they added 8 minor to try to save a dying division. The division is doing better around here, but it's still on life support.

 

When Limited gets to the point that 1-2 guys at a club match is a good turn out then I say we revisit this idea. Kill major in Limited means you make the most popular caliber in one of the most popular divisions obsolete. I for one would be done with limited, hell that would cost me enough money I'd probably say F-it and go shoot IDPGAY.

 

Oh, and 40 major is really easy to shoot out of a decent limited gun. It probably sucks out of a stock plastic gun, but that's what production is for.

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, DukeEB said:

I think that CO is a step for people with vision issues and also for people who want open without a lot of cost.  I don't think it's taking shooters away from limited because of ammo or fun factors.  40 is actually very nearly as cheap as 9.  CO is minor scoring only, so cost doesn't enter into the equation for usage IMHO.

 

I don't shoot CO (yet), but frankly it's MUCH more appealing than open to me because it is actually 'practical', in that the guns are pretty much duty/carry guns. I will be surprised if CO doesn't get pretty big in the next few years.

[DukeEB]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

I don't shoot CO (yet), but frankly it's MUCH more appealing than open to me because it is actually 'practical', in that the guns are pretty much duty/carry guns. I will be surprised if CO doesn't get pretty big in the next few years.

That's a great point!  I think you're right, especially with so much support from firearms companies.

[Chills1994]

5 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

Your trolling has gone dramatically down hill 

Did you not notice the winking smiley?

 

You took my comment way too seriously

[Jeff226]

On 5/31/2017 at 11:10 AM, motosapiens said:

 

why wouldn't the sissies who can't handle 40 just shoot carry optics or production divisions, where 40 has no advantage and 9mm is the most popular round by far?

 

Since people have a choice, and the majority seem to choose 40 (limited division), perhaps you are entirely wrong......

 

Who says there needs to be a class where 40 has an advantage?  Limited makes perfect sense for people with 9mms who shoot 3 gun, steel matches, IDPA, or who want to fully load their magazines or make a few mods on their production/carry guns EXCEPT for the fact that Limited scoring is disproportionately biased in favor of major...that is why the "majority seem to choose 40"...it isn't because all of these people love 40...and this isn't really a choice if you want to be competitive.   

 

The most simple and logical solution is to split Limited into two separate divisions: Limited Major and Limited Minor.  Let the so called real men shoot major while the rest who don't want to buy/maintain the dying .40 cal to be competitive in one division of one shooting organization can shoot minor.  May the best division survive.

 

I am not sure why sissies who game limited with a scoring advantage that was implemented back when major had a higher power factor have this air of superiority.  If they were so tough they'd be shooting single stack major with factory 230 gr 45 ACP.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Jeff226

[kneelingatlas]

That's one helluva first post!  Welcome to the forums Jeff 

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Who says there needs to be a class where 40 has an advantage?

 

People enjoy competing in a division that favors their skill sets, fun factor, and equipment already purchased and developed. I have poor recoil control but better than average accuracy so production works well for me, I could also compete on level ground shooting SS minor and would have the advantage with minor in wheel guns. If excellent recoil control was part of my skill set (something that many shooters have developed with hard work) then limited or SS major would be where I wanted to go. 

 

Since I already have 3 divisions where minor works well (4 if you count pcc, ick, I think that is what they shoot in France) and also have the option of going to open for recoil control, it would seem awkward for me to push for a new division in order to create a 6th option.

[waktasz]

I say we give the Limited minor crybabies 170mm mags. #equality 

[Dutchman195]

So the advantage is you get a few extra rounds in the mag....The Pros shoot Major/Minor just as fast. But the Pros also dont miss when shooting major. I just dont see anyone winning anything....ever...with Lim minor. The only people I see shooting Lim Minor are people that just started and dont understand the sport and want to shoot for cheap, they also dont win anything. 

Now SS minor vs Major...there is a actual discussion. 

[Racinready300ex]

7 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Who says there needs to be a class where 40 has an advantage?  Limited makes perfect sense for people with 9mms who shoot 3 gun, steel matches, IDPA, or who want to fully load their magazines or make a few mods on their production/carry guns EXCEPT for the fact that Limited scoring is disproportionately biased in favor of major...that is why the "majority seem to choose 40"...it isn't because all of these people love 40...and this isn't really a choice if you want to be competitive.   

 

The most simple and logical solution is to split Limited into two separate divisions: Limited Major and Limited Minor.  Let the so called real men shoot major while the rest who don't want to buy/maintain the dying .40 cal to be competitive in one division of one shooting organization can shoot minor.  May the best division survive.

 

I am not sure why sissies who game limited with a scoring advantage that was implemented back when major had a higher power factor have this air of superiority.  If they were so tough they'd be shooting single stack major with factory 230 gr 45 ACP.

 

 

 

So the problem is people want to be competitive, and don't have the right gear so we should make a new division just for them so they can feel like winners too? If we keep doing that, where does it end? How many divisions is to many? I think we currently have 8 divisions, you'd make it 9. And don't forget we have classes in each of those divisions, so at any match you could have up to 54 shooters claim to have finished 1st. Do we just keep adding winners until you're one too??

 

And then once we split the divisions, we'll just let the best division survive. Good plan, but when was the last time we killed a division? If we were going to only let the best division survive we'd only have Open, Limited, Production, and now probably PCC. The rest wouldn't survive.

[motosapiens]

8 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

If they were so tough they'd be shooting single stack major with factory 230 gr 45 ACP.

 

 

i do shoot singlestack with 230gr 45 @ 175pf.

 

we already have enough divisions for women and children.

[MikeBurgess]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i do shoot singlestack with 230gr 45 @ 175pf.

 

we already have enough divisions for women and children.

I went 211PF at the WSSSC last year.  

 

(didn't want to repeat the 164.7 of the CCS Championship)

[Jeff226]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So the problem is people want to be competitive, and don't have the right gear so we should make a new division just for them so they can feel like winners too? If we keep doing that, where does it end? How many divisions is to many? I think we currently have 8 divisions, you'd make it 9. And don't forget we have classes in each of those divisions, so at any match you could have up to 54 shooters claim to have finished 1st. Do we just keep adding winners until you're one too??

 

And then once we split the divisions, we'll just let the best division survive. Good plan, but when was the last time we killed a division? If we were going to only let the best division survive we'd only have Open, Limited, Production, and now probably PCC. The rest wouldn't survive.

At this point, when high capacity 9mms dominate the gun market and they are predominantly used in other shooting events (3 gun, steel, IDPA), it doesn't make sense to build in a scoring disadvantage to a dying caliber in the USPSAs largest division.  This is called knowing the market and has nothing to do with giving everyone a trophy. 

 

In the end, it needs to be about participation and fair competition, not about keeping 40 S&W on life support as long as possible.

 

Edited June 13, 2017 by Jeff226

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

At this point, when high capacity 9mms dominate the gun market and they are predominantly used in other shooting events (3 gun, steel, IDPA), 

 

 

My agency still carries 40, as do most other local agencies. If you actually knew the market you would not be the only one who thinks limited needs fixing. Everyone else is happy.

 

If you are right, carry optics will be the biggest division in a year or so......

Edited June 13, 2017 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

In the end, it needs to be about participation and fair competition, not about keeping 40 S&W on life support as long as possible.

 

 

You're exactly right, it's about participation and fair competition. Limited is one of the most popular divisions. So it would be really dumb for us to make such a drastic change to limited. And there is nothing unfair about Major, everyone can take advantage of it if the choose to.

 

So if the division is popular, and fair why do we need to add another division?