Is major falling out of favor in Limited

[bret]

On 5/24/2017 at 4:36 PM, benchmstr said:

believe whatever you want...but power factor is holding the uspsa back.

 

of course they conformed to major! what choice do you have? the reasoning behind major is even a joke "bigger holes means bleed out faster" if its so practical then why have major in open division? please tell me how all these open division handguns that cant even be traditionally holstered are practical?

 

its a complete joke...and it always will be....it just happens to be accepted by most.

 

the bench

2016 Limited Nationals, 276 Limited shooters,  26 shot Minor.

 

Ashley Reuhark was 63rd, she is an 18 year old girl fresh out of High School, she is small said she can't handle the recoil of Major, so she shoots Minor and does pretty well,  beat a lot of higher classified shooters, she is an A shooter in Limited.

 

Why is power factor scoring a joke? 

 

It's not just about bigger holes,  .38 Supercomp in open is major of and minor in single stack, same sized hole, lower velocity in SS and less recoil.

 

A 9mm 2011 shoots a lot softer than a .40 S&W, the 3 extra rounds in 9mm can make a difference between reloading and not in major.

 

You have to have more Alpha's with minor if you are competing against people shooting major.

 

How much more should USPSA be dumbed down for you?

 

Carry Optics has turned into cheap open, probably will have 2011's in CO before the rules are officially adopted.

[Larry White]

Power, speed and accuracy are to be rewarded, DVC, remember hearing that anywhere? Recoil hurts Mikes wrist and elbows so lets all shoot minor, I'm not as fast as I once was, so lets quit timing the match. Bill cant hit anything, shoots too many Cs and Ds, lets not score the targets or just say 2 anywhere is good to go.. Everbody is a winner at that point. Frank didn't show up but he's a club member so lets mail him a trophy too. Sounds like fun to me . Go for it!---------------------Larry

[GrumpyOne]

8 hours ago, GARD72977 said:

I have noticed several guys at a local club shooting Limited Minor. I dont understand why. They are not in the hunt to win. (Major would not change that)

 

I think some people believe there is an advantage to minor.

That also could be the case of "It's what I have to shoot and I don't want to spend the money on a gun that shoots major"...Seeing lots of 3 gunners using their 9mm in Limited. 

[ltdmstr]

I have a PT in 9mm that I built primarily for 3-gun and when I use it for Limited I usually end up around the same place I normally am shooting major.  I don't think there's a benefit one way or the other, at least at my level.

[Chills1994]

11 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:

I am really confused as to why you think the classifier system is illegitimate as a measuring stick. Even if the only justification they had for setting the 100% was "we think a GM should be able to do it at this based on the math" then who cares. It is a consistent scale for anyone who shoots it.

Would them publishing the HHFs for all the divisions be nice? Sure, but if you spend like 15seconds doing the math you can figure out the HHF for any division. It download the AZshooters app to your phone and it will just tell you what they are.

The only ones I happen to think are illegitimate are some of the various standards out there. Baseball standards, Area 5 standards, etc. The fixed time classifiers need to be fixed so that they aren't all just 100% = all the points, because that is essentially unattainable.

Then USPSA HQ needs to show or tell  its members how they derived that HHF.

 

You're paying for it.  Some 20,000 or so members are paying for it.

 

This is not the best of analogies, but....

 

Your performance at work is somehow measured, right?

 

What if at the end of the year your boss tells you that you don"t meet the standards or minimums for X, Y, and Z, and you are never told what, officially from your boss or HR what those standards are?  Or better yet how they derived those standards?

 

No bonus for you!

 

Or what if you met the standards this year and your company quietly moved the standards up a notch or two for next year, and you're shocked that you find out you're below par?

 

Do you know for sure that every classifier for limited somebody has shot it at 100% or better?

 

[waktasz]

17 hours ago, mwray said:

I've seen too many 115%+ classifiers get throwed out so how can it e accurate

 

You know they don't update the HHF just because someone busts a fast run, right?

[davidb72]

I think the classification system is working fine.

Every time I go to a major match I shoot within 5% of my classifier score in relation to my division winner.

[benchmstr]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:38 PM, bret said:

2016 Limited Nationals, 276 Limited shooters,  26 shot Minor.

 

Ashley Reuhark was 63rd, she is an 18 year old girl fresh out of High School, she is small said she can't handle the recoil of Major, so she shoots Minor and does pretty well,  beat a lot of higher classified shooters, she is an A shooter in Limited.

 

Why is power factor scoring a joke? 

 

It's not just about bigger holes,  .38 Supercomp in open is major of and minor in single stack, same sized hole, lower velocity in SS and less recoil.

 

A 9mm 2011 shoots a lot softer than a .40 S&W, the 3 extra rounds in 9mm can make a difference between reloading and not in major.

 

You have to have more Alpha's with minor if you are competing against people shooting major.

 

How much more should USPSA be dumbed down for you?

 

Carry Optics has turned into cheap open, probably will have 2011's in CO before the rules are officially adopted.

USPSA has you brainwashed...keep drinking the KOOL-AID..

 

I would love to see guys like you shoot something legitimate, or even steel challenge....see how much you "fast charlies" count in a game of best(read: accurate)shooter..

 

you are rewarding speed over accuracy, and that makes you 7 flavors of stupid...

 

have fun with your crayons junior

 

the bench

[waktasz]

I still don't really know what we are arguing? That charlies in major shouldn't be 4 points? I think i get it now/

[motosapiens]

wow, you guys got trolled hard. There can't really be anyone that much of a sissy that he can't handle major, right? My wife weighs all of 130 lbs and she has no issue with it.

 

for benchmstr the troll, it's no coincidence that the top steel shooters are also top uspsa shooters, and vice versa. both sports require the appropriate amount of speed and accuracy for the particular target.

[bret]

7 minutes ago, benchmstr said:

USPSA has you brainwashed...keep drinking the KOOL-AID..

 

I would love to see guys like you shoot something legitimate, or even steel challenge....see how much you "fast charlies" count in a game of best(read: accurate)shooter..

 

you are rewarding speed over accuracy, and that makes you 7 flavors of stupid...

 

have fun with your crayons junior

 

the bench

Steel Challenge is a hit anywhere just have to ring it as fast as you can, I shoot it with my limited iron sighted gun or my Open Gun.

You think just a fast hit from a standing position is a true test of skill?

[motosapiens]

On 5/27/2017 at 9:33 PM, Chills1994 said:

Then why did the BoD vote to release or publish the HHFs a few years ago (only to keep sitting on them)?

 

 

the HHFs are public knowledge, freely available and easy to calculate yourself from a single data point.

 

How each one was derived is not all that transparent (although you can look up the appropriate matches for a few of them that were introduced at nationals), but honestly, who cares. Worrying excessively about classifiers and class in general is a big roadblock to becoming a better shooter and doing well in matches.

[Jts2581]

21 hours ago, davidb72 said:

I think the classification system is working fine.

Every time I go to a major match I shoot within 5% of my classifier score in relation to my division winner.

Well said.  Me too.  It's almost creepy how accurate it is.  

[busdriver02]

3 hours ago, benchmstr said:

I would love to see guys like you shoot something legitimate, or even steel challenge

In the off chance that you're not trolling, what would you consider a legitimate shooting sport?

[Shadyscott999]

Who really gives a rip about classifiers or some silly card?     HOA or bust.  

[Edge40]

Well played Scott lets keep the trolling going hahahaha.

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, busdriver02 said:

In the off chance that you're not trolling, what would you consider a legitimate shooting sport?

 

I think he does the olympic ski and shoot thing in winter and sort of a jazz dance and shoot thing when there is no snow on the ground. 

 

Could be wrong. 

[Pistolpete9]

I have said it before and I still believe it.  Either USPSA will make a change to get rid of the scoring disparity between .40 and 9mm or shooters will eventually leave it for a different game.  9mm is the most popular handgun round and for good reason.  .40 offers very little advantage in the real world and it makes no sense to penalize those who acknowledge that. I don't know that it will happen any time real soon, but it just seems like they'll see that people are having more fun shooting 3-Gun and Steel Challenge without having to worry about making major with a more expensive round that they likely don't use the rest of the time.  At the end of the day, that's what it's about for most of us. Fun.  

For now though I'll just be the goofball shooting limited minor, having a lot of fun, and worrying about 0% that someone might beat me at nationals by using .40.  To each their own.  I totally understand why they originally did what they did and I think they'll adjust accordingly.

[Steve RA]

Don't forget all the .45 ACP lovers out there.  I don't really understand the problem, no one makes you shoot one or the other, it gives you a choice and a chance to play to your strong suite.

[PatJones]

...people are having more fun shooting 3-Gun and Steel Challenge without having to worry about making major ...

I don't see that, but to each their own I guess.

[Pistolpete9]

It was future tense....

[waktasz]

2 hours ago, Pistolpete9 said:

I have said it before and I still believe it.  Either USPSA will make a change to get rid of the scoring disparity between .40 and 9mm or shooters will eventually leave it for a different game.  9mm is the most popular handgun round and for good reason.  .40 offers very little advantage in the real world and it makes no sense to penalize those who acknowledge that. I don't know that it will happen any time real soon, but it just seems like they'll see that people are having more fun shooting 3-Gun and Steel Challenge without having to worry about making major with a more expensive round that they likely don't use the rest of the time.  At the end of the day, that's what it's about for most of us. Fun.  

For now though I'll just be the goofball shooting limited minor, having a lot of fun, and worrying about 0% that someone might beat me at nationals by using .40.  To each their own.  I totally understand why they originally did what they did and I think they'll adjust accordingly.

 

There is 1 division where 40 is best. The rest are there for 9mm. Sounds like the wonder9 is getting it's due just fine. 

[bret]

2 hours ago, Pistolpete9 said:

I have said it before and I still believe it.  Either USPSA will make a change to get rid of the scoring disparity between .40 and 9mm or shooters will eventually leave it for a different game.  9mm is the most popular handgun round and for good reason.  .40 offers very little advantage in the real world and it makes no sense to penalize those who acknowledge that. I don't know that it will happen any time real soon, but it just seems like they'll see that people are having more fun shooting 3-Gun and Steel Challenge without having to worry about making major with a more expensive round that they likely don't use the rest of the time.  At the end of the day, that's what it's about for most of us. Fun.  

For now though I'll just be the goofball shooting limited minor, having a lot of fun, and worrying about 0% that someone might beat me at nationals by using .40.  To each their own.  I totally understand why they originally did what they did and I think they'll adjust accordingly.

.40 is the most popular in Limited, a lot of other Divisions 9mm is best.

 

You think people will take up 3 gun because they don't like major/minor scoring? 

 

That doesn't make any sense.

 

USPSA,Steel Challenge and Multigun are 3 different types of sports, with multigun being the most expensive and time consuming to shoot.

 

There is nothing wrong with the current scoring system. 

 

If you can't handle Major or need extra rounds, Minor is for you.

[Pistolpete9]

Misquoting me.  Read it again before getting too upset.

[Chills1994]

On Monday, May 29, 2017 at 5:38 PM, motosapiens said:

 

the HHFs are public knowledge, freely available and easy to calculate yourself from a single data point.

 

How each one was derived is not all that transparent (although you can look up the appropriate matches for a few of them that were introduced at nationals), but honestly, who cares. Worrying excessively about classifiers and class in general is a big roadblock to becoming a better shooter and doing well in matches.

In that case, why have a classification system at all?

 

;-)