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Replicate load/accuracy for Federal Gold Match 223 + Inconsistent OAL on 650


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Hi Guys - Newbie here, I have a brand new Dillon 650, with all the trimmings, and I am having trouble with reloading for accuracy on my first few attempts of reloading.  I am not pleased with the results of my first reloads after investing close to 3 grand in all of my accessories and press.  I am pretty sure I am doing something wrong.  One obvious potential problem area, is that my OAL is inconsistent, it ranges from 2.240 to 2.267.  Before I get to that, let me share my results.

 

Constants:

AR15- Faxon Gunner Barrel, 18" 1:8 twist, AIM Surplus Black nitride BCG, Timney3.5lb trigger - Sandbag bench shooting.

100 yard range - mild weather/wind

Vortex Spitfire 3x Prism Scope 

 

Benchmark:. Federal Gold Medal Match 223 77 Grain BTHP - Result 0.45" average Mean Center Radius - 10 rounds group

 

Reload:

Sierra Match King 77 Grain BTHP

Lake City Brass - mixed Once Fired - trimmed to 1.750 (range of 1.740 to 1.752) (flash holes not trimmed)

Powder H335 22.5 grains

CCI 400 primers

Press: Dillon 650

OAL - Set to 2.25 but having inconsistency problems of 2.240 to 2.267

Result: 0.96" Mean Center Radius - 16 round group -

 

Why is that my reloads are twice as inaccurate as my commercial stuff?  I was hoping to get at least the same level of accuracy with the same bullets as the commercial stuff.  The vortex spitfire reticle is not well suited for sub-moa shooting, its hard to see on this target, and when I turn on the illumination, it expands the size of the reticle.  I could probably improve both groups with a scope that has more zoom to it.  

 

What am I doing wrong with my reload process, and is it normal to have that big of a difference in OAL on my bullet seating die?  How can I fix that? Could that really cause such a difference in an AR?

 

Thanks,

 

Just_Me

 

 

 

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Edited by Just_Me
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59 minutes ago, Just_Me said:

What am I doing wrong with my reload process, and is it normal to have that big of a difference in OAL on my bullet seating die?  How can I fix that? Could that really cause such a difference in an AR?

Just_Me...

There are a lot of variables in the reloading process that effect accuracy, and diagnosing over the internet is a crap shoot IMO.  Based on your question & information provided i'm assuming you're fairly new to reloading.  My advise is to find someone local that has been reloading for a while and have them review and diagnose your process.  

As for OAL varying, could be:

1.  variation in bullet length (which i've seen in HP bullets), nothing to worry about.  Measure to the Ogive instead of tip.

2.  seating die loose / not set properly (not good)

3.  case mouth not deburred after trimming  (not good)

4.  measuring device is faulty  (not good)

 

As for accuracy not being the same as Fed. GM....How did you determine 22.5gr of H335?  Did you do a OCW or Ladder test?  

 

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I am very new, I have been reloading for about two weeks, (150 rounds in total).  When I did my first 50 rounds with a 55 grain bullet, I was very consistent with OAL, (but terrible results in accuracy)

 

I did chamfer and debur all of my bullets, and have found that my measurement does not change between the seating die, and the crimp die.  I have 2 calipers, so both of them are measuring the same.

 

I am usuing the Dillon 650 powder die to measure the H335, to make sure its working right, I was removing them from the shell plate, dumping them into a manual scale, and then returning the powder, I did this until I was sure I had my powder set right.  

 

I also tightend up my shell plate as much as I could to make sure that it was right.   I was having problems seating my primers, and suspect that some of the long measurements were because my primer was protruding a bit.  (I think I fixed that problem now). 

 

My "stroke" was very inconsistent, sometimes I would push real hard, and sometimes just enough.  But I didn't think that had an impact.  

 

The 22.5 grains is the max load out of the Sierra manual for H335, I will go back and look again, but I could have sworn I saw a flat primer.  I am very much a newbie, so hard for me to really know what's normal and what isn't.  I'm thinking I broke a reloading rule, by not doing the ladder test on this one, its just that the velocity was already pretty low at 2500 ft/sec for that load.  

Edited by Just_Me
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5 minutes ago, caspian guy said:

+1 to the above about length variation on otm bullets. Measure to the ogive.

 

H335 probably isn't the best possible powder for the 77s you might want something a bit slower (maybe Tac)

 

OK, boy you guys are quick, I think this is the problem.

 

I looked at a few of the "off spec" bullets, and it the very tip of the hollow point is sometimes slanted pretty hard (maybe 30 or 45 degrees), and this appears to be my measurement problem.  

 

I just googled the term Ogive, and now that I know what it is, I dont know how to measure to it.  The SMK 77 grain ogive seems to begin below the crimp, its a long bullet, and I dont see anything that delineates where the ogive begins until the tip of the bullet.

 

Should I not worry about the OAL variance, and maybe try switching to Varget?  I was wanting something that meters well in the 650

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try a good polymer tipped bullet for a while that should eliminate the 0al variances. Varget it s great powder but not from a progressive loader - try TAC.

 

If I am trying for ultimate precision I have to weigh each load (Chargemaster) the volumetric loaders simply are not precise enough and the 223 is a small volume case which needs accurate powder drops.

Edited by Solvability
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10 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I would try XBR 8208 for your purposes. The stuff is almost magic, AND it meters very well.

 

 

I have had very good results with XBR and H322 and 77 SMKs.  With both powders the best results were near or at maximum charges. 

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2 hours ago, Just_Me said:

 

OK, boy you guys are quick, I think this is the problem.

 

I looked at a few of the "off spec" bullets, and it the very tip of the hollow point is sometimes slanted pretty hard (maybe 30 or 45 degrees), and this appears to be my measurement problem.  

 

I just googled the term Ogive, and now that I know what it is, I dont know how to measure to it.  The SMK 77 grain ogive seems to begin below the crimp, its a long bullet, and I dont see anything that delineates where the ogive begins until the tip of the bullet.

 

Should I not worry about the OAL variance, and maybe try switching to Varget?  I was wanting something that meters well in the 650

To do the measurements get one of these https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-Lock-Load-Comparator-Inserts/dp/B000PD5VLA

 

But i suspect that oal variation isn't likely to be your problem..  match kings are famous for it and still shoot great (some of the ultra long-range guys have tools for trimming and pointing the noses but at 100 yards its very unlikely you'd see any impact.)

 

Some folks can get varget to run through a Dillon powder measure a quick search should turn up some guidance.   I never could, so i use short grained or ball type powders.  

Edited by caspian guy
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First, I would suggest CFE223 as a spherical powder that is very suitable for 77 grain projectiles. Second, when you set up your dies, always tighten the die lock rings with a case in the size die, as well as in the subsequent die you are adjusting. This both centers the die in the threads as well as gives you the same upward pressure on the toolhead you  will have when actually reloading progressively.

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There is some variation when running the press but I suspect some of this is new operator technique running the press.  I have had good luck with TAC, CFE223, and 8208.  The NM crowd seems to really like Varget and RL 15 as well.  I will try and attach a youtube video that I picked up a couple of tricks from. Notice how smooth he runs the press when loading. 

 

 

Also, just my opinion, but mean radius is probably a poor and expensive choice when searching for accuracy nodes (precision).  Both of those pictures you posted are pretty underwhelming accuracy wise and I would seek something like the photo I attached.  Once I have found the accuracy node I can shoot a 10 shot group and see what that looks like (real close to 1 moa).  Actual radii are probably a better indices of precision.  I don't wan't to go out in the weeds on this tangent though, and like I said, it's just my opinion. 

 

I would also encourage the use of a chronograph.  Low standard deviation and low extreme spread are good indicators of consistency and uniformity of combustion.

 

If you have another optic from a hunting rifle to evaluate the precision of your loads that would help too.  I shoot a lot of sub moa groups with the 6x optic on my 3 gun rifle but I now use and old Nikon Monarch 14x scope for testing, MUCH easier.  Its pretty hard to shoot good groups at 100 with a 3x optic (for me).

cfe25.jpg.jpg

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12glocks - Thanks for your post, and I agree with your sentiments.  In my other AR rifle with a high powered scope, I shoot groups like yours using Federal Gold Match 77 grain SMK.   I am pretty sure that being new at reloading is the leading factor here, and for my eyes, the 3X scope is just not going to group like my high powered scope at 12+ magnification.  

 

I appreciate the link as well, and hope to get better with my new reloading machine.  

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You cannot produce accurate precision loads with a 3X scope.  I don’t care how good you are.

Buy a 6.5-20x for load testing.

 

Sort your bullets like in the photo using a comparator and use them in groups.  Weigh each of your powder charges separately before even trying to use a progressive press. 

 

Develop a load to the velocity you want.  Then experiment with group size by seating the bullets 3-5 thousandths longer, then 3-5 thousandths shorter. 

 

These tips will go a long way in getting you to where you want to be.

Berger74.jpg

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