sizing failures

[dlightning]

Just recently got into reloading rifle.  In the process of sizing 5.56 brass with a Redding Type S.  About 30% is failing to pass the JP case gauge.

 

My steps are:

Wash and rinse range brass,

Sort

Deprime

Wet tumble

lube

Re-size 

Check with case gauge (JP)

 

My press is the Forster Co-axel.  I have called Redding and the tech gettleman said to lower the ram and give it another 1/8 of a turn.  

 

I need help on what to do.

Edited May 20, 2017 by dlightning

[TonytheTiger]

Maybe lower the ram and give it another 1/8 of a turn?

[Sarge]

9 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Maybe lower the ram and give it another 1/8 of a turn?

Glad I wasn't taking a drink just then!

[atbarr]

This is what I use.

 

Sheridan Engineering 5.56/.223 slotted ammo gauge

http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-2.htm

[dlightning]

I had originally turn it 1/8th of a turn then add another 1/8th twice.  Which ended with 3/8th of a turn and it still has not improve the results.  Driving me nuts.  

 

I ordered the Forster shell holder adapter so I can use a traditional shell holder.  Also coming is a Forster sizer die.  Hopefully all this will help.  

 

I'll order the slot gauge if all this does not give better results.

[mscott]

I had to take about .040 off any he bottom of my current sizing die to get my ammo to fit the case gauge. 

[M1A4ME]

I had an issue similar to these years ago.

 

I took the metal off the top of the shell holder instead of the bottom of the die. 

 

I figured a shell holder was cheaper to replace than a sizing die.

[Steve RA]

Get one of these.

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/359546/redding-competition-shellholder-set-10-17-remington-204-ruger-223-remington

[bigedp51]

The competition shell holders will push the case from .002 to .010 "LESS" into the die than a standard shell holder. Example I use the plus +.004 competition shell holder shell holder for .003 shoulder bump and if I used the standard shell holder the shoulder would be bumped back .007.

 

The JP Enterprise gauge is made from a SAAMI minimum diameter finish chamber reamer. Meaning this gauge checks cartridge headspace and case diameter.

 

You need to find out if the cases are too large in diameter or if the shoulder has not been bumped back far enough.

 

Below a Wilson, Dillon and JP Enterprise case gauges, the Wilson and Dillon gauges are larger in diameter than the JP Enterprise gauge. As you can see below the reversed cases drop further into the Wilson and Dillon gauges because their internal diameter is larger.

 

NOTE, with any of these gauges if you have dinged up rims the case rim will hang up on the gauge and it will not drop all the way into the gauge. This is where having a small fine file comes in handy to file down the ding.

 

 

Below I use the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge to measure the fired case headspace length and then bump the shoulder back .003 from its fired length.com

I use the JP Enterprise gauge as the final "plop test" of the loaded ammo to make sure the case diameter has been reduced enough. The resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter to ensure reliable extraction.

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by bigedp51

[dlightning]

3 hours ago, bigedp51 said:

You need to find out if the cases are too large in diameter or if the shoulder has not been bumped back far enough.

 

How do I do this?

[dlightning]

Thank you to everyone.  I just made another order to midway.  That is the third one this week.?

 

The case seems to stop very close to the lip.  I'll try the small file tonight.  

 

Thank you you for all the help.

[ffgats]

OP

you mentioned it doesnt pass the JP gauge, but  does it chamber on your rifle.

I just switched to Forster FL sizing die from Dillon, nothing wrong with Dillon die, it just out of sevice temporarily,  and the brass from Forstyer doesnt fully go down using my JP gauge but will go in all the way with Dillon gauge. Test fired the ammo using the Forster die and all chambered 100%. The brass that was sized using the Dillon die will all drop straight to my JP and Dillon gauges.

[RPatton]

On 5/21/2017 at 6:14 AM, M1A4ME said:

I had an issue similar to these years ago.

 

I took the metal off the top of the shell holder instead of the bottom of the die. 

 

I figured a shell holder was cheaper to replace than a sizing die.

The first rule of gunsmithing : "Always destroy the cheapest part first." can be applied to many things.

[mlmiller1]

At what point in your process are you trimming the length of the brass?

[dlightning]

All the rounds chamber even the ones that did not pass the JP gauge.  I still did not feel comfortable using rounds that did not pass the JP gauge especially in a rapid fire match condition.  

 

I trim after resizing which is after a wet tumble.  

 

So I made some changes.  

 

Switched to a shell holder versus using the lock jaw with the Forster press.  This helped a little.  

The Forster resizer die did not help.

I tried and will continue to use a small file.  Thank you bigedp51

Purchased a Dillon die set.  This help a lot.  Thanks for the suggestion ffgats

I ultimately switched to Lake city brass.  Which now pass most of the time.  If it doesn't pass then it is very very close.  I was using Freedom Munition ammo and saving the brass.  I think it was just too soft.  

 

So for now I'll start working up bigger batches.  Then eventually switch the whole thing over to my 650.  

[loaded605]

After resizing I tumble wet or dry. Sort through them with a caliper for the ones that need trimming and don't. Then get to trimming.

[Huch]

Are you tumbling or otherwise de-lubing the cases between when you resize them and when you check them in the case gauge? It's not listed in your steps so I thought I'd ask. If you're gauging them while they are still lubed, the lube can make cases stick or it can build up in the case gauge (especially a tight one like the JP) and cause cases to fail the gauge even when they are sized properly.

[dlightning]

Currently my work flow is after resizing and before checking with the gauge, I wipe the case down with a rag that has a degreaser on it. 

 

When I first started with rifle I did not use the mild solvent.  I believe wiping it down to de-lube helps. 

[bigedp51]

Dillon dies are small base dies and a small base die reduces the case diameter .003 more than a standard FL die. The small base  die also pushes the case shoulder back .003 more than a standard die. Meaning a small base die will reduces the case to SAAMI minimum dimensions.

 

And the JP Enterprise case gauge is also cut to minimum SAAMI dimensions. And with once fired or range pickup brass the case was fire formed to a different chamber and your dealing with brass spring back "after" sizing. Meaning the resized cases may not fit the JP Enterprise gauge and why a small base die is needed.

 

A small base die is a "must have" if you buy once fired brass or use range pickup brass.

 

When it comes to chambers and dies nothing is written in stone, I have a standard Lee .223 FL die that sizes the cases smaller than my RCBS small base die.

 

Normally if you look at the chamber diameters below a standard .223 die should be good enough if the brass is fired in your AR15 rifle.

 

I'm loading for three different AR15 rifles and buy bulk once fired Lake City brass so I use a small base die all the time.

 

NOTE, for a semi-auto the resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter for reliable extraction, And full length resizing shoulder bump should be .003 to .006.

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by bigedp51

[Steve RA]

While a case gauge can be helpful, what really counts is whether or not the loaded cartridge properly fits the chamber of the weapon it is to be used (fired) in.  If you were having no problem with chambering, or extraction, then your cases were probably sized sufficiently.

[bigedp51]

A case can fit the chamber and still cause extraction problems on over gassed AR15 type rifles.

 

There must be enough brass spring back from the chamber walls for the case to freely eject.

 

The last thing you need is the extractor yanking on a case rim before the case body springs back from the chamber walls.

[858]

6 hours ago, bigedp51 said:

 

 

A small base die is a "must have" if you buy once fired brass or use range pickup brass.

 

 

 

I have small base dies that I have used once in 15 years. I have loaded probably 20k rounds of mixed brass with regular RCBS dies on RCBS, Lee, and Dillon machines. All rounds fit in my case gage (Wilson). I do not find SB dies a "must have" at all but rather a waste of money. 

[bigedp51]

And I have a standard Lee .223 full length die that sizes the cases small in diameter and bumps the case shoulder back more than my RCBS small base die.

 

When it comes to chambers and dies nothing is written in stone because they can  and do vary in size.

 

"AND" the OP is wondering why his once fired Lake City cases will not fit in his JP Enterprise case gauge.

 

The answer is simple, the OP was using a Redding FL bushing die that does not size the entire case neck.

 

My wild ass guess is brass spring back after sizing and the case neck was not sized just above the shoulder.

 

Trust me I'm loading for three AR15 rifles and a Savage bolt action .223, and have a few dies that vary in size.

And using a small base die with the "proper" amount of shoulder bump (.003) is not going to shorten your

 case life in your AR15 rifle. "AND" having accurate vernier calipers to measure fired case diameter and resized diameter

doesn't hurt and knowing what your dies are doing when reloading.

 

And below my Redding, Lee and Lyman .223 dies are not in the photo. And since I worked in a sporting goods store many of these dies were well less than half price and many were free.

 

 

Bottom line, never say never about small base dies............they make and sell them for a reason.

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by bigedp51

[dlightning]

Thank you everyone. 

 

First I am very new to rifle reloading so my miles vary differently from everyone due to lack of knowledge.  I check the brass after re-sizing so that I don't proceed to load bad brass (save time).  I check again after all is done.  

 

I did not want to chance on a round that would chamber and extract but would not pass the JP gauge.  BECAUSE: the AR is hard to discern whether the round is chambered fully.  The visual inspection is limited.  Bolt does move fully forward but I was doubting myself.  I wanted something else to check versus the visual of chambering a live round that might or might not fit.  Being new to rifle reloading I want to eliminate the doubts.  

 

I have used Redding competition and non competition FL sizer dies, Forster Ultra sizer, and Dillon.  So far the Dillon does the job by producing brass that passes the JP gauge.  Maybe SB dies are not a must for AR but a must for the JP gauge.  

[858]

I'd buy a new gage before I bought new dies. I've been down this road before, if you're camming over a full length die the SB is pretty unnecessary. It shouldn't take 10 different sets of dies to figure this out either. JP may be making a gage intentionally on the small side to match their tight chambers but who knows. I've got a bunch of ARs, every one of them cycles ammo that passes a Wilson gage, it would be pointless to size brass any smaller.