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Getting rid of the Glock bulge without U die


sstephns

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I know it's probably been covered plenty of times, but it's driving me nuts. Using Lee dies with the fcd. Loading on LnL AP. Sizing die is just barely bumping the shell plate as is the fcd. I can see the grease ring around the cases after sizing (I don't clean my brass, and shoot them with lube right before loading) and can see it's not sizing all the way down.

 

Is there something I'm doing wrong, is there a better die set, do I just need to get the egw die? Probably 5% don't pass the gauge at all, with another 10% not dropping totally free in the gauge.

 

It's driving me nuts.

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My thoughts are "why are you not cleaning the brass first"?  Even an indoor range that is spotless, the brass is dirty on the exterior with carbon.  That minute amount of crud added to the lube could be an issue to case guaging and plunk testing.  Running the cases through a cheap vibratory cleaner for half an hour certainly wouldn't hurt.  Also, carbide dies are tough, but they are capable of being ruined by dirty brass.

 

Not cleaning them makes no sense to me at all.  But that is me.  Different strokes I guess.  You probably have been doing it this way for 40 years and this is the first time you have had a problem.

 

I agree with rooster, get the egw die and be done with it.  And clean the brass first.  Your dies will thank you.

 

molson

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31 minutes ago, molson said:

My thoughts are "why are you not cleaning the brass first"?  Even an indoor range that is spotless, the brass is dirty on the exterior with carbon.  That minute amount of crud added to the lube could be an issue to case guaging and plunk testing.  Running the cases through a cheap vibratory cleaner for half an hour certainly wouldn't hurt.  Also, carbide dies are tough, but they are capable of being ruined by dirty brass.

 

Not cleaning them makes no sense to me at all.  But that is me.  Different strokes I guess.  You probably have been doing it this way for 40 years and this is the first time you have had a problem.

 

I agree with rooster, get the egw die and be done with it.  And clean the brass first.  Your dies will thank you.

 

molson

 

Ten years, but the brass cleaning thing is because I'm a bit lazy about it. Probably gonna start, but I don't believe it's the issue with not sizing fully down the case

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If you feel like it you can do a search and fine many don't use the FCD to size much if any at all. I just used it to crimp because its easy to adjust. The EGW Udie will fix your problem and then you certainly don't want the FCD doing any sizing.

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4 hours ago, rooster said:

Loose the fcd, get the egw u die, and you should be ok.

EXACTLY....
I had BIG problems with Glock'd brass in 9mm - 40 - 45 ACP.
The rounds would work ok in a dillon case checker....but got hung up in my Tanfo's.
Replaced the Dillon sizing dies with EGW undersided dies....have had ZERO problems since.
They are WELL worth the money.

Edited by DenverDave
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I found that utilizing the EGW U Die didn't fix all of the glock bulge issues.  There were still many of cases over the course of loading 1k that still didn't gauge properly due to extreme glock bulge.  Also, found that if you didn't lube your cases prior to running them through resize quite a bit more resistance on the press.   

 

I use an automatic rollsizer now.  Brought my case related issues down to zero. 

 

 

 

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Combinations of Hornady Sizing dies and Lee Factory Carbide Crimp Die reduced my Glocked brass problem to below 1% in 45ACP and under 2% in 40sw.  I count any round that does not drop completely inside the gauge to fail.  That said, every one of the "failed" rounds chamber fine and fire in both 45 and 40.

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Buy the Lee bulge buster kit, it pushes the case through the carbide factory crimp die and sizes the entire base of the case.

 

And wipe all the lube from your cases, the lube prevents the case from gripping the chamber walls and doubles the bolt thrust. Meaning your pistol slide is being hammered twice as hard as normal.

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13 hours ago, bigedp51 said:

Buy the Lee bulge buster kit, it pushes the case through the carbide factory crimp die and sizes the entire base of the case.

 

And wipe all the lube from your cases, the lube prevents the case from gripping the chamber walls and doubles the bolt thrust. Meaning your pistol slide is being hammered twice as hard as normal.

That second part is a new one to me. 

 

And I'm not interested in a bulge buster, the more I have to do to get ammo in my gun the less interested I am. If the U die doesn't fix it, they're going on the practice bin

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Any range pickup brass or bulk once fired brass I buy is run through a bulge buster. Chambers and dies vary in size and the bulge buster ensures the case diameter above the extractor groove meets SAAMI standards.

 

And every reloading manual has a warning like below, so if this information is new to you then try reading your reloading manuals.

Below from the Lyman reloading manual.

 

The cartridge case grips the chamber walls until the chamber pressure drops allowing the brass case to "spring back" from the chamber walls. At this time the case begins to push the slide to the rear. A lubed case with grease, oil or water on it does not grip the chamber walls and hammers the slide and frame with twice the amount of force or thrust as normal. The same applies to any rifle or handgun and over stresses the action and this same force is what causes the headspace to increase over time.

 

To this day the British use two oiled proof pressure test cartridges to proof their military small arms. And if the headspace increases over a given amount the firearm fails proof testing.

 

Below from the 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms, the British used the base copper crusher system and measured chamber pressure at the base of the case. And this is the only method that measure actual bolt thrust and proofing also seated the bolt lugs to the receiver. When the Enfield rifle was proofed with the oiled proof cartridge if the headspace increased .003 or more it failed proof testing.

 

 

W8oz09S.jpg

 

Below from the Lyman reloading manual and every reloading manual I have has the same warning.

oillube-1.jpg

Below from the U.S. Army

dontlube-1.jpg

 

Below from the H.P White testing labratory

 

"1.4 Failure of a gun assembly from internal pressure may be from either
of two (2) failure mechanisms.

1.4.1 The general perception is that those failures are the result
of a single exposure to a CATASTROPHIC PRESSURE level. This
may be an over simplification in that the strength of the
assembly may have been degraded by previous repeated exposures
to excessive, but lesser, levels of pressure whose cumulative
effect is to reduce the ultimate strength of the assembly.

 

1.4.2 Repeated exposure to pressures which exceed the elastic limit
of a material will continually reduce the ultimate strength of
the material until the ultimate strength is exceeded by a
relatively low pressure level causing fatigue failure."

 

Bottom line, lubed ammo pounds the hell out of your firearms, and the firearms manufactures, ammunition manufactures and the reloading industry tells you to "NOT LUBE" your ammo.

Edited by bigedp51
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On 5/22/2017 at 2:54 PM, bigedp51 said:

Any range pickup brass or bulk once fired brass I buy is run through a bulge buster. Chambers and dies vary in size and the bulge buster ensures the case diameter above the extractor groove meets SAAMI standards.

 

And every reloading manual has a warning like below, so if this information is new to you then try reading your reloading manuals.

Below from the Lyman reloading manual.

 

The cartridge case grips the chamber walls until the chamber pressure drops allowing the brass case to "spring back" from the chamber walls. At this time the case begins to push the slide to the rear. A lubed case with grease, oil or water on it does not grip the chamber walls and hammers the slide and frame with twice the amount of force or thrust as normal. The same applies to any rifle or handgun and over stresses the action and this same force is what causes the headspace to increase over time.

 

To this day the British use two oiled proof pressure test cartridges to proof their military small arms. And if the headspace increases over a given amount the firearm fails proof testing.

 

Below from the 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms, the British used the base copper crusher system and measured chamber pressure at the base of the case. And this is the only method that measure actual bolt thrust and proofing also seated the bolt lugs to the receiver. When the Enfield rifle was proofed with the oiled proof cartridge if the headspace increased .003 or more it failed proof testing.

 

 

W8oz09S.jpg

 

Below from the Lyman reloading manual and every reloading manual I have has the same warning.

oillube-1.jpg

Below from the U.S. Army

dontlube-1.jpg

 

Below from the H.P White testing labratory

 

"1.4 Failure of a gun assembly from internal pressure may be from either
of two (2) failure mechanisms.

1.4.1 The general perception is that those failures are the result
of a single exposure to a CATASTROPHIC PRESSURE level. This
may be an over simplification in that the strength of the
assembly may have been degraded by previous repeated exposures
to excessive, but lesser, levels of pressure whose cumulative
effect is to reduce the ultimate strength of the assembly.

 

1.4.2 Repeated exposure to pressures which exceed the elastic limit
of a material will continually reduce the ultimate strength of
the material until the ultimate strength is exceeded by a
relatively low pressure level causing fatigue failure."

 

Bottom line, lubed ammo pounds the hell out of your firearms, and the firearms manufactures, ammunition manufactures and the reloading industry tells you to "NOT LUBE" your ammo.

 

Well, not the info I came in looking for, but very valuable. Thank you.

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On 5/22/2017 at 11:54 AM, bigedp51 said:

Below from the Lyman reloading manual and every reloading manual I have has the same warning.

oillube-1.jpg

 

Bottom line, lubed ammo pounds the hell out of your firearms, and the firearms manufactures, ammunition manufactures and the reloading industry tells you to "NOT LUBE" your ammo.


I just want to point out this portion of bigedp51's post.  You should still lube your brass while making your ammo and then, when done reloading, remove that lube.  Sure you don't have to lube straight walled cases if you are using carbide dies but the press runs smoother with lubed cases and removing the lube isn't really all that difficult.  I haven't had a problem with "Glock bulge" when using Dillon dies and lube.  YMMV.

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I always lube the cases, it's just a million times nicer.

 

On topic with what bigedp51 posted, I stumbled on this the other day which is quite contrary:

 

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466502

 

Post #9, Post #21, and this link contained somewhere within: http://www.varmintal.com/a243zold.htm

 

The FEA contained in the varmintal link is super interesting stuff.

Edited by sstephns
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4 minutes ago, sstephns said:

I always lube the cases, it's just a million times nicer.

 

On topic with what bigedp51 posted, I stumbled on this the other day which is quite contrary:

 

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466502

 

Post #9

Its funny what people will believe when reading postings in forums and makes me wonder about their intelligence. I posted the same information in another forum where the "super moderator" was telling people to lube their cases. This "super moderator" rather than being wrong deleted my postings and banned me from the forum. So wake up and read your reloading manuals and their warnings.

 

In a dry chamber when the case grips the chamber walls the case acts like a shock absorber reducing the force and dwell time on the bolt face.

At the maximum rated chamber pressure for the 30-30 of 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi the chamber pressure is not great enough to make the case stretch to meet the bolt face. This allows the primer to protrude from the rear of the case by the amount of your head clearance. And the primer contacting the bolt face only applies very little force to the bolt face.

 

So again, who are you going to believe, faceless screen names in forums or the firearms manufactures, ammunition manufactures and your reloading manuals. And then ask your self how many of these case lubing "experts" have the test equipment to measure bolt thrust. The answer to this is none of them.

 

NKNfs2n.jpg

l82GT10.jpg

 

Stupid is as stupid does.

Forest Gump

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Interesting, shooting 9mm minor I have never noted any difference in ejection distance, or anything else, elated to lubed versus dry brass.

 

Perhaps it is a caliber specific thing or perhaps my powers of observation are lacking?

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Normally when fired the pistol case grips the chamber walls and then springs back when the pressure drops. Meaning the slide doesn't move to the rear until the case releases its grip of the chamber walls.

 

The problem with a lubed case is the case doesn't grip the chamber walls and the slide slams back with twice the force as a dry round.

 

This is not the same as a higher pressure rifle cartridge because your pistol headspace is not going to increase due to the added bolt thrust.

 

"BUT" the lubed case will caused the slide to move to the rear with far more force and pound the pistol far more.

 

"AND" if your cases do not have burned powder carbon residue on the outside of the case with lighter loads it means the case is sealing the chamber by gripping the chamber walls.

 

Bottom line, a lubed case will pound firearms much harder than a dry chamber and case will. Or to put it another way a lubed case is like "NOT" wearing a helmet in a foot ball game and wondering why your head hurts and your seeing double.

 

So go ahead and lube your cases if you want to understand the effects of excessive bolt thrust better.

 

PijdpgS.jpg

Edited by bigedp51
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Hmm, I've shot too many thousands of lubed rounds with no signs of any issue to worry about it and can say the same for my shooting buddies, but again all pistol cartridges and loaded only as heavy as required for USPSA & similar. 

 

Something to think about though. Will load a few dry cases and see if I can tell any difference in ejection distance. As is I'm running light recoil & mainsprings and not seeing ejection distance that seems at all suspicious. 

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2 hours ago, bigedp51 said:

Normally when fired the pistol case grips the chamber walls and then springs back when the pressure drops. Meaning the slide doesn't move to the rear until the case releases its grip of the chamber walls.

 

The problem with a lubed case is the case doesn't grip the chamber walls and the slide slams back with twice the force as a dry round.

 

This is not the same as a higher pressure rifle cartridge because your pistol headspace is not going to increase due to the added bolt thrust.

 

"BUT" the lubed case will caused the slide to move to the rear with far more force and pound the pistol far more.

 

"AND" if your cases do not have burned powder carbon residue on the outside of the case with lighter loads it means the case is sealing the chamber by gripping the chamber walls.

 

Bottom line, a lubed case will pound firearms much harder than a dry chamber and case will. Or to put it another way a lubed case is like "NOT" wearing a helmet in a foot ball game and wondering why your head hurts and your seeing double.

 

So go ahead and lube your cases if you want to understand the effects of excessive bolt thrust better.

 

PijdpgS.jpg

 

I get it. But the FEA in varmint als website is interesting reading

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16 hours ago, bigedp51 said:

Its funny what people will believe when reading postings in forums and makes me wonder about their intelligence. I posted the same information in another forum where the "super moderator" was telling people to lube their cases. This "super moderator" rather than being wrong deleted my postings and banned me from the forum. So wake up and read your reloading manuals and their warnings.

 

In a dry chamber when the case grips the chamber walls the case acts like a shock absorber reducing the force and dwell time on the bolt face.

At the maximum rated chamber pressure for the 30-30 of 38,000 cup or 42,000 psi the chamber pressure is not great enough to make the case stretch to meet the bolt face. This allows the primer to protrude from the rear of the case by the amount of your head clearance. And the primer contacting the bolt face only applies very little force to the bolt face.

 

So again, who are you going to believe, faceless screen names in forums or the firearms manufactures, ammunition manufactures and your reloading manuals. And then ask your self how many of these case lubing "experts" have the test equipment to measure bolt thrust. The answer to this is none of them.

 

 

 

Stupid is as stupid does.

Forest Gump


Again, lubing cases is fine, lubing LOADED ROUNDS is the problem you are talking about.  Remove the lube after you make your ammo.

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5 hours ago, jhgtyre said:


Again, lubing cases is fine, lubing LOADED ROUNDS is the problem you are talking about.  Remove the lube after you make your ammo.

 

And the poster IHAVEGAS stated he did not remove the lube from his cases before firing them.

 

It would help if you read all the postings before being redundant.:rolleyes:

 

oillube-1.jpg

 

 

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5 hours ago, bigedp51 said:

 

And the poster IHAVEGAS stated he did not remove the lube from his cases before firing them.

 

It would help if you read all the postings before being redundant.:rolleyes:

 

oillube-1.jpg

 

 

It would help if you understood the difference between a lubed case and a lubed cartridge.  In my previous post I even included that image that you have now posted twice.  Just quit saying "lubed cases" and you'll be all set. 

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