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Need advice - troubleshooting 40 loads with coated bullets


JayDee

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Background:

I used a single stage to learn for the past couple years. Last year I bought a Dillon 550B and started reloading 40. I have successfully loaded about 3000 rounds of plated bullets (Rainier 180 over 4.9 grains VV N320, OAL 1.15"). Currently I'm using a Lee undersized sizing die, Dillon powder die, Dillon seating die and Lee factory crimp die. About 2% of my finished rounds did not fit my Lyman chamber check gauge. This is tighter than the chamber on my 1911 and about half of these successfully pass the plunk test.

 

Now I am working on a different load with some coated bullets. I bought some test rounds and loaded up a couple different loads and found a combo that was equal PF with less powder and more accurate. There were only a couple of test rounds that didn't fit the chamber gauge and I figured it was because they were old, heavily worked brass. All the starline, federal and winchester brass turned out fine. 

 

The problem is that now I am loading up the bulk order, more than 3% of loaded rounds fail the chamber gauge. I've tried different headstamps of brass, new and once-fired with no different results. Crimp is consistently .420-.421, so I think I should be with spec. The Lee U-sizing die is adjusted as far down as it will go, and the case bases are in the .423-.424" range. 

 

Can anyone suggest some next steps to troubleshooting this? Is there any major adjustments to process or technique that need to be made with coated vs. plated? I'd appreciate some other ideas based on the forum's experience.

 

Thanks!

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3% isn't too bad - as you mentioned, most of them would probably load and fire

successfully.

 

I just take the failed cartridges and use them for practice - I use a LOT more than

3% in practice, anyway.    :) 

 

But, if it bugs you, I'd run The Plunk Test again, with the new bullets, and see if

if might help to shorten them up a bit    :) 

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Take the ones that fail the gauge and put them in backwards.  If they pass you know it's the bullet and not the brass that  stop the case from gauging.

 

I find that the inconsistent coating on all of the coated bullets hang up in the gauges.  I solved it by using the XL gauge from the hundo which has a bigger through hole where the bullet passes through.

 

If they don't fit the gauge when you put them in backwards and it's the brass that makes them fail I would run them through a bulge buster.  With 3% failure I wouldn't buy a bulge buster if you don't already have one.  I would just put that 3% in the practice bin.

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Thanks for the suggestions guys!

 

I'll try gauging them rim first to see if it is the bullet and then try the XL Hundo gauge.... it is probably more efficient that running each round through the Lyman :) 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Take the barrel from your gun and plunk a few backwards. That is, case head first. This will let you know if a bulge exists on that end. Then plunk the other end.

Remember that coated bullets are usually sized larger than jacketed bullets (my last batch measured .402), but in any event, if your crimp is around the .420/.421 mark you should be okay. With the 550B it almost feels like you're swaging the bullet when it goes through the crimp die.

Three rounds out of one-hundred is perfectly acceptable, but I would say that you can do even better with new, or roll-sized brass of the same manufacturer.

:)

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I've noticed this with coated bullets as well and crimp to the same measurement as you.  Never had the problem with plated or jacketed bullets.  Also, I have the problem on some coated bullets and not others.  Sometimes it is not the bullet, but a bulge in the case (yes, even after going through the u-die).  If one fails your case gauge, flip it upside down and see if it goes.  If it does, then it is the bullet/crimp area, if it doesn't, then it is a bulged case.

 

I've had this problem with ACME and Bayou bullets.  Blue Bullets and Precision Black (different from Black Bullets) seem to pass the gauge pretty much every time.  What makes them different, I don't know...Blues are sized at .400, but Precision Blacks are .401 just like Bayou and ACME, so that shouldn't be the issue.  Any that fail the case gauge just become practice rounds for me.

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I've recently had a problem with a batch of coated bullets. They pass the chamber gauge, but fail the plunk test. Problem is the coating on the ogive of the bullet. It's uneven. Almost like a run on a painted wall. Where there's this extra coating on one spot, the bullet head hits the rifling, and won't chamber. I'm getting this on 1 out of every 100-150 bullets.

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this is just my opinion but ...If your using the Lee Factory Crimp die, there is no need to use the Lee Undersizing die, in the first station.   I regular resizing die will do.

additionally, I would not use coated or plated bullets to begin with.  

Zero 180gr, FMJ bullets will yield excellent results. 

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2 hours ago, kimberacp said:

this is just my opinion but ...If your using the Lee Factory Crimp die, there is no need to use the Lee Undersizing die, in the first station.   I regular resizing die will do.

additionally, I would not use coated or plated bullets to begin with.  

Zero 180gr, FMJ bullets will yield excellent results. 

 

I've shot quite a few SNS bullets without any long term issues.  They did have 1 batch where a sizing die was worn out and I think some of their .40 bullets were sitting at .403.  I gave them a call and they corrected the issue immediately.  Ever since they've switched to their new "brick red" coating, I've had no troubles.

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3 hours ago, kimberacp said:

this is just my opinion but ...If your using the Lee Factory Crimp die, there is no need to use the Lee Undersizing die, in the first station.   I regular resizing die will do.

additionally, I would not use coated or plated bullets to begin with.  

Zero 180gr, FMJ bullets will yield excellent results. 

I do agree that using the FCD together with the U-die as a solution to bulged cases is overkill, and about as likely to cause problems as to solve them.  Also, Zero bullets are great...some of the best I've used and would absolutely be my choice if money were no object.  That said, they are also ~$180 per 5k more expensive than some of the coated options, so you could either save the money or get yourself 7000 coated bullets for the cost of 5000 Zeros...

Since my wife got into USPSA with me, loading effectively and as cheap as possible is paramount :)

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I used to run every piece through a GRX, then load with a standard Dillion size die, finish with a Lee FCD. I have since omitted the GRX with no ill effects. All range pick up, whatever brass. I have less than 3% failure rate.
Actually, believe it or not, the non GRX sized rounds case gauge better in the XL hundo, than the ammo that was run through the GRX. Makes no sense to me. They all shoot fine, they would just drop in the case gauge more fully. These are Bayou 180 TCG. You might try it without the U die.


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I appreciate the feedback. I loaded another 300 rounds recently and tested all the rounds that failed my chamber gauge. All but a couple fed backward (rim-first) into the gauge, showing that the brass was appropriately sized. The only ones that were not sized well were glock-bulged, but they accounted for only 2-3 out of this batch.

 

Like several of you suggested, I think the coated bullets are what was causing them to not fit the case gauge. I shot them all during practice this week, and had no malfunctions, so that is a plus. I can totally live with that! On another note, these Eggleston bullets are super accurate in my gun. I tested several diameters in both my 1911's and my Limited gun and they produced noticeably smaller groups than the plated bullets I was using. 

 

Next stop, Hundo XL gauge. Should hopefully work with these coated bullets ( I have another 3500 to load) and be more efficient than the single chamber Lyman I've been using.

 

@kimberacp & @fbzero - Why would the FCD and U-die be a bad combination? Not questioning your opinion, just trying to learn why they wouldn't work together. 

 

Thanks!

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On June 1, 2017 at 10:29 AM, kimberacp said:

this is just my opinion but ...If your using the Lee Factory Crimp die, there is no need to use the Lee Undersizing die, in the first station.   I regular resizing die will do.

additionally, I would not use coated or plated bullets to begin with.  

Zero 180gr, FMJ bullets will yield excellent results. 

I am still testing coated bullets, but I haven't found any to date that are as accurate as Zero 180 JHPs.

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A few pictures of the ones that are failing along with measurements would be very helpful. 

 

I load .40 using both BBI and Bayou coated bullets, no issue with passing my Dillon case gauge or firing in my G35.

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The Dillion case gauges seem to be rather large. Haven't measured it, cause I'm not really concerned. But rounds that fail rim first into the hundo, pass the Dillon gauge. Unless your gonna box the ammo in Dillon boxes, hundo is not really faster IMO. Still gotta stick each round in the hole. One at a time.


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What is the diameter of your coated bullets, the directions with the factory crimp die tells you to not use the die with oversized cast bullets.

 

So check the diameter of the case around the bullet "before" and after crimping with the Lee FCD.

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On 6/2/2017 at 4:13 PM, JayDee said:

I appreciate the feedback. I loaded another 300 rounds recently and tested all the rounds that failed my chamber gauge. All but a couple fed backward (rim-first) into the gauge, showing that the brass was appropriately sized. The only ones that were not sized well were glock-bulged, but they accounted for only 2-3 out of this batch.

 

Like several of you suggested, I think the coated bullets are what was causing them to not fit the case gauge. I shot them all during practice this week, and had no malfunctions, so that is a plus. I can totally live with that! On another note, these Eggleston bullets are super accurate in my gun. I tested several diameters in both my 1911's and my Limited gun and they produced noticeably smaller groups than the plated bullets I was using. 

 

Next stop, Hundo XL gauge. Should hopefully work with these coated bullets ( I have another 3500 to load) and be more efficient than the single chamber Lyman I've been using.

 

@kimberacp & @fbzero - Why would the FCD and U-die be a bad combination? Not questioning your opinion, just trying to learn why they wouldn't work together. 

 

Thanks!

You'll like the Hundo; It really makes case gauging go faster.  I find that a lot of fails actually still work, but I'd rather be extra sure of any ammo I take to matches.  Expensive hunk of metal, but as much as we spend on this sport, having a day ruined by easily avoidable ammo problems is silly.  I actually have some Eggleston bullets on the way to test...been hearing good things about them.

 

As far as the FCD and U-die combo, I'm not saying that they can't work together.  They absolutely can.  Most people get one, the other, or both to try and bulge bust cases while loading without a separate step though.  Neither are 100% in this regard, and those usually end up being the ones that still fail your case gauge when turned around.  In my experience, using both doesn't increase the success rate, and I think that between the two of them, the extra neck tension from the U-die on a round like the 40 S&W is more desirable than a brute force carbide ring being used on your finished product. 

 

With a normally sized projectile, it's going to do basically nothing if you are already using the U-die...case has already been sized down.  Now, if you are using a .401, .402 projectile or you manage to get a bullet seated slightly crooked that would otherwise fail the case gauge, the FCD is just going to hulk smash them into place, then they're going to pass your case gauge.  I don't want those rounds in my match ammo though.  Aside from the possibility of coating damage, if you paid for .402 ammo because that's what your pistol likes, why would you want to smash it down to .400ish?  Long and short, I think that it can be put to good use in some situations, but I also think that it can simply hide problems from elsewhere in the loading process, without actually increasing the bulge-busting capabilities of the U-die alone.

That's just my 2 cents on the subject though, I don't claim to know everything.  I do like how easy it is to adjust the crimp with the FCD though...I may try to get the carbide ring out so I can use just the crimping functionality of it.  With the redding comp seating die and powder micrometer, the crimp is just about the only thing I can't currently adjust with a turn of my finger...

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That is great info, and makes perfect sense. Currently, the FCD is set for light crimp so hopefully it is not masking any other incongruities in my process. 

 

I am using the .400 Eggleston bullets. I tested .400 and .401 in my 1911 and my CZ Limited gun. Groups from the 1911 were nearly identical, but the .400 grouped way better in my CZ, so I went with that caliber.

 

 

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22 hours ago, JayDee said:

That is great info, and makes perfect sense. Currently, the FCD is set for light crimp so hopefully it is not masking any other incongruities in my process. 

 

I am using the .400 Eggleston bullets. I tested .400 and .401 in my 1911 and my CZ Limited gun. Groups from the 1911 were nearly identical, but the .400 grouped way better in my CZ, so I went with that caliber.

 

 

Doubt you'd have any problems with that setup.  It's usually the oversized bullets used with the FCD that may cause issues in my experience.  If you want to be sure, seat a bullet but don't put it through the FCD.  Pull it and measure it with the calipers.  Then, do the same thing again, except run it through the FCD.  If it measures the same as it did in the prior test, then you aren't mashing the bullet down to a smaller diameter.

 

For me, .Precision Black bullets come at .401, and after running them through the FCD were ending up at .3995 (must be really really soft or something...).  ACME's started at .401 and ended up at .4005.  Blues are sized at .400 and stayed the same through the process, and of the coated bullets I have used are the only ones with nearly a 100% pass rate on the Hundo.  Unfortunately, I have one 40 in the stable that needs a minimum of .401 and prefers .402 :(

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i have loaded a ton of 40 with lead/coated/plated/FMJ through regular Lee dies.  i don't even adjust the setting when going between bullet types.  

 

here is what i do 

lube cases

set bell at .422 

seating die only seats the bullet and  closes the bell slightly 

FCD does the final crimp 

crimp set at .419/420 

 

been shot through MP/2011/ Glocks with never an issue.  i have always found it odd people having trouble with the 40SW. i find it a very forgiving to load. 

Edited by Sandbagger123
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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks to everyone for the advice. It seems like it ws combination of coated bullets and crimp die that needed some tweaking in my system. I finally figured out an adjustment that gets really good results:

 

I ended up adjusting my Lee factory crimp die about 1/4 turn tighter. The crimp is about .420-.421, which is just under spec. I thought this was where the FC die was set, but evidently it still needed a little more for the ammo to pass the case gauge. I also go a hundo XL case gauge. I've cut the number of rounds that fail the case gauge in half. Now, when I'm sizing finished cartridges, only 2-3 out of 100 fail the case gauge. These are added to my practice stash and have so far worked 100% of the time, so I'm really happy with the results. 

 

PS-  Eggleston bullets have been very consistent and accurate from both my 1911s and my CZ. Great price too. 

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My experience with various coated bullets has been similar to others.  Blue Bullets are the only ones that pass 100% of the time.  I haven't tried Eggleson yet, but have tried almost all the others.  My best guess is it has to do with the profile of the bullet.   For those of you who checked the  OAL with calipers on most or all of your match bullets, how much variation are you seeing with coated bullets?  I am seeing greater variation with coated.  Just curious if anyone else is seeing this.  I load to 1.18.

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