Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Moon clips hanging up - AKA what am I doing wrong in the loading process?


matteekay

Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, matteekay said:

SOLVED! BossHoss gets a cookie. Or points. Or however we score this, lol.

 

I went back and watched the videos from the match. I'd remembered the chambering problems starting on the first COF but they didn't (beyond one clip needing a tiny push, which happens sometimes regardless). I didn't have real issues until COF #3, when the gun was toasty and apparently very dirty. So, I looked the gun over, and found what looks to me like an excessive amount of powder all over everything:

 

IMG_20170522_2145442_zpsezqxw5kd.jpg

 

IMG_20170522_2145528_zps7cmvz4kr.jpg

 

IMG_20170522_2146204_zpsrva7nlnp.jpg

 

The gun was cleaned before the match and I shot less than 100 rounds. This is also a week later and I've handled it a bunch since then, so it was probably even worse the night of..

 

Then the last piece clicked into place - I changed powders at the same time I changed bullets, going from 700-X to HP-38. I didn't think that HP-38 is a dirty powder, and I'm at max load with it for this bullet, but clearly something is off. Should I try upping the charge? I've also been toying with switching to Solo 1000.

One of the fun things about shooting revolver is that you don't necessarily get to use the powder (or the primers) that you want; you get to use what the gun wants.  The greenish looking gunk in your photo looks just like the greenish gunk that I get if I drop my powder charge too low.  That unburnt stuff will screw up your reloads for sure.  Depending on how dirty that load is you might be able to get by with cleaning your gun after every stage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

One of the fun things about shooting revolver is that you don't necessarily get to use the powder (or the primers) that you want; you get to use what the gun wants.  

 

I've never heard it described better!

 

I compared these bullets to some of the cannelured lead ones I have. Based on my seating depth, the case had 1/8" or more of extra space inside - that would explain why the max charge still had unburned powder. I'm going to try these new bullets and maybe tick the charge up 0.1. I don't think HP-38 is a particularly dirty powder so I think I can get it to work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Okay... starting to think that HP-38 is just dirty, Or at least this batch is.

 

- I cleaned the cylinder thoroughly

- Tried changing bullets - now using the Eggleston 148gr coated lead roundnose

- Loaded close to max charge (4.4gr). There's no data for this bullet so I had to use a very similar 146gr LRN, which is listed at 4.5gr max of HP-38 or 5.0gr of 231 (weird, I know)

 

I loaded 16 rounds into two moons and took them to the range to shoot. The first moon of 8 dropped straight in and shot well - no signs of overpressure and no excess powder on the crane or front of the cylinder. Went to load the next moon... and it stuck. Same place as before, when it's nearly fully-seated.

 

So I'm sort of at a loss. One shot per charge hole was enough to gum it up badly enough to stop the next moon from loading all the way? I could see it if the rounds were still spewing melted powder but these seemed to light off clean. Maybe I've just discovered the perfect concoction of unburnt powder, heat, and coated bullets to create instant glue in the cylinder.

 

I'm going to try changing powders to something with a faster burn... maybe Titegroup or even Trail Boss. Open to other suggestions as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if I mentioned this early or if you have done this already but have the cylinder reamed.  This is one step in the process that can really throw you for a loop when you are having this problem. TK Custom does excellent work and fast turn around time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if I mentioned this early or if you have done this already but have the cylinder reamed.  This is one step in the process that can really throw you for a loop when you are having this problem. TK Custom does excellent work and fast turn around time.


That's a good thought. The one thing worth mentioning is that I had this issue occur with this same load in three different guns, one of which wasn't even using moons.

So I've tried:
- Cleaning the everloving crap out of the cylinder
- Upping the charge
- Changing bullets (all coated, though)
- Changing guns

And I still get sticking after firing even one cylinder's worth of ammo. The only thing left to try is changing the powder - I've used coated lead bullets with AutoComp and Trail Boss and never had this issue before.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the folks keeping score at home, a final(?) update:

 
I brought several handloads to the range to try in a sequence. All were moonclipped. 
  • 158gr Hornady XTP over AutoComp (max charge)
  • 158gr Missouri Bullet Co. coated lead SWC over AutoComp (max charge)
  • 148gr Eggleston coated LRN over Trail Boss (4.4 - 4.5gr; based on case volume, I believe this is a max charge, but I had to ballpark it based on data for heavier bullets)
  • 160gr BBI coated LRN over 3.7gr HP-38 (supposedly a max charge, but very, very dirty. I think the bullet was seated high enough to add room in the case, effectively lowering the pressure)
 
Here was the process (I scrubbed the cylinder between firing moons):
  • Cleaned the gun thoroughly: Hoppe's Bore Scrubber with a bronze brush in a power drill, dried with patches, then cleaned again with patches coated with Hoppe's gun oil
  • Test fired with the XTP/AC first, then dropped in one of each moonclip to see if it would stick. I got a little sticking with all of them. That was unexpected since this was the AutoComp charge, but it wasn't nearly as bad as the glue I was getting with HP-38. 
  • Tried with the Eggleston/TB load. Drop it one of each moon, NO STICKING. Hi-fived myself.
  • Tried the MBC/AC load, dropped in one of each moon, and again got some light sticking. 
  • Tried the BBI/HP-38 load, dropped in one of each moon, and they froze completely (as expected)
  • Ran several of the Eggleston/TB loads, then dropped in one of each moon. No sticking. Gave myself a second high-five. People looked at me funny.
 
So, final thoughts...
  • I think a combination of things is the cause of the issue. One, the charge holes might be a little narrow and could probably stand to be reamed. Two, TB is the hottest powder of the three I tried so anything but a total burn is leaving at least a little residue. Three, using moonclips exacerbates everything since a little friction on each cartridge x 8 = a lot of friction on the moon. 
  • I probably need to go a bit above max on the coated lead charges. I've been told that this is common as coated lead builds less pressure than bare lead 
  • Trail Boss solves all!!!1! (or at the very least, is a good choice for lead). 
 
So jhgtyre's sentiment holds true - this particular revolver has a powder preference that others might not, lol. It doesn't surprise me as it's been a little b**** ever since I bought it (Performance Center "quality"). Interestingly, I didn't have these issues when using 700-X, which is also a fast-burner. So, hot powders going forward.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have found that 231/HP-38 leaves the yellow powder flakes until you get to a certain heat/pressure level, after which it burns pretty clean. So not the best for some light target loads, ok for some med. target loads, good for heavier bullet/higher velocity target loads. This is all a bit ambiguous due to the many variables involved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a thought on the cleaning process. When storing the revolver not a bad idea with the oil patches in the cylinder. But when shooting dry patches and no oil in the cylinder. Could be the oil residue as it heats up is keeping some of the powder residue.

 

Just a thought

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Toolguy said:

I have found that 231/HP-38 leaves the yellow powder flakes until you get to a certain heat/pressure level, after which it burns pretty clean. So not the best for some light target loads, ok for some med. target loads, good for heavier bullet/higher velocity target loads. This is all a bit ambiguous due to the many variables involved.

 

You're right on all counts. To satiate my curiosity and/or as a testament to my stubbornness, I'm going to keep upping the HP-38 until I get a clean burn or overpressure indicators at some point.

 

50 minutes ago, revoman said:

Just a thought on the cleaning process. When storing the revolver not a bad idea with the oil patches in the cylinder. But when shooting dry patches and no oil in the cylinder. Could be the oil residue as it heats up is keeping some of the powder residue.

 

Just a thought

 

That occurred to me after this test. Another thing to try! I will say that my usual process is bore scrubber, then boresnake with a little oil before the wide "tail" so I think most of the oil gets pulled out. It certainly wouldn't help, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, deerassassin22 said:

I run 3.2grn of W-231 with 160grn BBI at 1.135 and have no issues and I haven't cleaned my gun in 500rnds and it made 133PF at the Alabama Sectional

 

In a .38 Special case or in a 9mm? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, deerassassin22 said:

True but a shorter barrel should be less powder and HP-38 is close to W-231 wouldn't it?  I might be crazy today though been a long one

 

 

231 and HP-38 are the same; or at least, are now the same. I have some old manuals with different charge weights. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...