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Just a few thoughts...


Forrest Halley

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With the advent of CCP, why is ESP not a fifteen round division? With the advent of concealable light mounted holsters, why aren't WML allowed in said ESP division? Are there any guns in ESP that won't hold 15 rounds? Who is really worried about the extra weight on something that already has an add on magazine well? 

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14 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

My ESPs are 1911 based and will not hold 15 rounds. 

I use aluminum mag wells to keep weight down. 

Shoot do I feel dumb...I had completely forgotten about the non .45 single stack 1911's. Oops. I honestly don't think they're much of a casualty with the 18 round stages. You're gonna find a reload point in there somewhere. 11 vs. 15 is not a big trade-off....unless it's a 12 round stage. Put some steel plates out on the stage... that'll wreck the 15 round stage plan...

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16 hours ago, BillR1 said:

It's probably because every one can't use 15-round mags. The rules need to be somewhat equal from state to state to make things even.

Not really. The people who shoot in that state can obey that state's laws and regulations. The entire game doesn't have to be hobbled for the few. The Classifier can be hobbled to keep everyone on the same scale, but after that let's play with as little limits as possible. I'm an expert whether I shoot 10 or 15. I'm carrying a lot closer to 15 than ten. 

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1 hour ago, Forrest Halley said:

Not really. The people who shoot in that state can obey that state's laws and regulations. The entire game doesn't have to be hobbled for the few. The Classifier can be hobbled to keep everyone on the same scale, but after that let's play with as little limits as possible. I'm an expert whether I shoot 10 or 15. I'm carrying a lot closer to 15 than ten. 

 

I guess we'll disagree on that one. I think IDPA's rules should be the same regardless of where I'm shooting.

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54 minutes ago, BillR1 said:

 

I guess we'll disagree on that one. I think IDPA's rules should be the same regardless of where I'm shooting.

Well a legally based capacity limit is not a rule of the discipline. I don't feel like there is enough of a difference between esp and ssp. I'm more interested in shooting a realistic magazine capacity. I'm inclined to reload near 15 rounds because my gun starts with 17+1. Typically the last two shots are the weakest to feed and by that point I've been shooting quite a while so I'm going to reload to avoid getting caught short.

The truth of this discussion is this: They're loath to allow 15 rounds because of the negative impact on single stack 9mm sales and participation. I forgot about those guns completely. It's a lifeblood of certain manufacturers. The ten round limit has ZERO to do with equal competition all over the country. I'm dropping the issue with apologies for having forgotten the obvious subsidized/at risk platform.

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14 minutes ago, Forrest Halley said:

The ten round limit has ZERO to do with equal competition all over the country

 

When IDPA was founded, the ten round limit was THE LAW all over the country.  During the AWB 1994-2004, an American Commoner was not permitted to buy a new magazine larger than 10 rounds.

 

We may debate the sense of staying with a rule based on an expired government restriction, but not its original rationale. 

 

There is an outlaw match near here with a different approach.  Load full up, but you still have to reload sometime during any stage longer than 10 shots.  And stages run longer than IDPA, although not as long as a big USPSA field course. 

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9 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

When IDPA was founded, the ten round limit was THE LAW all over the country.  During the AWB 1994-2004, an American Commoner was not permitted to buy a new magazine larger than 10 rounds.

 

We may debate the sense of staying with a rule based on an expired government restriction, but not its original rationale. 

 

There is an outlaw match near here with a different approach.  Load full up, but you still have to reload sometime during any stage longer than 10 shots.  And stages run longer than IDPA, although not as long as a big USPSA field course. 

I was alive then and I recall the AWB. 

I can only see the need for a ten round limit if it was a postal match in order to preserve the equality in the shooting problem. 

The outlaw approach sounds fun actually. I have traveled and shot idpa in a few different states and found it very enjoyable. I was shooting ESR at the time so it was a different game for me. I've started to play around with an m&p so the higher round counts are a bit more alluring. I don't mind the length of the field courses, but the amount of mags needed starts to exceed practicality depending on the platform used. Are you anywhere near VA?

 

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The main difference between SSP and ESP to me is the use of a single action pistol in ESP.The 10 round limit does not bother me either way. I would rather be able to do more to my pistol to enhance performance than add capacity.

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4 hours ago, SWprotected said:

The main difference between SSP and ESP to me is the use of a single action pistol in ESP.The 10 round limit does not bother me either way. I would rather be able to do more to my pistol to enhance performance than add capacity.

Right, so we've settled the THEN and NOW of the 10 round limit in the game for better or worse. 

 

What else would you like to do to your carry gun to enhance performance? Fully blown out to your ideal specifications without consideration of a particular division's limitations.

 

I have recently added a Streamlight TLR-1HL and I believe it was one of the smartest purchases I have made in a while. There is some added weight, but I feel very confident in low light situations as opposed to only having two loose flashlights. Now I have the ability to scan instantly from a startle response in total darkness without playing bat the flashlight onto the deck and let the whole world know I'm around. Having a laser on my J-Frame and just the light on the full size pistol has given me a significant advantage. I recently got the opportunity to shoot a match in transitioning light from late afternoon to dead of night. The thing I learned immediately was that after dark the laser is king. Hands down. Lights are great out beyond 25 yards for tighter shots because they allow the sights to be used, but that laser is a considerable edge to shooting on the move and rapid response to multiple targets. If I had it to do over again tomorrow I would go with the TLR-2 and get the laser as well even though the added bulk of the laser puts the holster into a bigger format than I would prefer. Now that Safariland has come out with ALS concealment holsters that stabilize with and without the light mounted there is a really interesting idea for the person who just carries one gun concealed and takes away from the mountain of holsters...

**An interesting side note, the folks who had slide riding optical sights were struggling to maintain their accuracy due to the WMLs whiting out their dots.**

I will have to refrain from the addition of a magazine well extension because I feel that it diminishes concealability. Adding grip tape also falls in the realm of unnecessary. 

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14 hours ago, Forrest Halley said:

Right, so we've settled the THEN and NOW of the 10 round limit in the game for better or worse. 

 

What else would you like to do to your carry gun to enhance performance? Fully blown out to your ideal specifications without consideration of a particular division's limitations.

I think you should be able to mod the gun anyway you wish, as long as it fits the box and does not exceed the weight limit. I would most likely lighten the slide on my pistol.

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I think that would be reasonable for ENHANCED Service Pistol and CUSTOM Defensive Pistol.

On the other hand, I think STOCK Service Pistol should be held a lot closer to box stock.  Calling a 1.5 lb trigger on a Glock "stock" is absurd.   

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2 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

I think that would be reasonable for ENHANCED Service Pistol and CUSTOM Defensive Pistol.

On the other hand, I think STOCK Service Pistol should be held a lot closer to box stock.  Calling a 1.5 lb trigger on a Glock "stock" is absurd.   

When I shot a G34 in SSP there was indeed very very little that was stock about that gun.

Things I'd changed were:

  • front and rear sight
  • recoil spring
  • recoil spring guide rod
  • barrel
  • extractor
  • extractor spring
  • striker
  • striker spring
  • striker spring cups
  • safety plunger
  • safety plunger spring
  • grip plug
  • trigger return spring
  • disconnector
  • trigger housing
  • cruciform
  • magazine base plate
  • magazine spring
  • take down pins

So I had a stock frame, slide, trigger shoe, slide release lever, mag release button, magazine tube and follower, locking block, slide plate and some small parts i'm forgetting. But yeah, not a whole lot o' stock parts there. And then of course all the polishing, fitting and tuning of it.

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I think we can all agree that SSP is anything but. That's what irks me about people constantly pushing the envelope for equipment. If you want to modify your gun, shoot ESP. 

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So now we are heading more towards a need for an inspection to determine whether or not a gun is reasonably modified or stock...interesting. I'd like to see some sort of fair way to do this without people getting too antsy about their position on on the scorecard and having that cloud their judgement. I'd like to see the old fella shooting the SW M19 without a chance in hell of winning a division tell a guy with a speed Glock in a bikini rig that his gear wasn't kosher in a non condescending tone. How about a minimum holster tension being enforced also? Or an effort to actually require competitors to be passably concealed? 

As far as a weight limit well that's not really all inclusive now is it? I should in theory, be able to add unobtainium bars to the gun to beef it up to the limit. I am not however allowed to add a WML or the brass magazine well extension for some reason, but another competitor can have a heavier gun and spend a car payment on a titanium magazine well extension to squeek in under the limit. I just want my full magazine and my WML. You XDm folks can have the extra two rounds, I got this...

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Hard work beats talent. Platitudes, platitudes.

 

You have a vision of what you'd like out of IDPA and that's good. Motivated people make changes. But when you're just whiteboarding ideas on a forum that are pretty far away from history, precedent and the stated aims of those in charge, well then I can't help but jokingly tell you you're dreaming.

 

I didn't bash your ideas, just your hope that they'd be implemented.

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2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Hard work beats talent. Platitudes, platitudes.

 

You have a vision of what you'd like out of IDPA and that's good. Motivated people make changes. But when you're just whiteboarding ideas on a forum that are pretty far away from history, precedent and the stated aims of those in charge, well then I can't help but jokingly tell you you're dreaming.

 

I didn't bash your ideas, just your hope that they'd be implemented.

No you're not bashing me...I'm saying my dreaming is better than bashing the discipline.

 

I'm aware of what is available in USPSA. It's fun to have multiple venues to shoot the same gun.

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Over the years I've been more an idpa defender than a basher. Member since '12 and shot every Nats or Worlds in that time. Normally shoot 5 majors I travel to per year. I write articles for the Tactical Journal. So I'm not some local yokel.

 

You want wml, a retention test for the holster, a change in round count for a division, a concealment test and you say there isn't enough difference between esp and ssp. The reason while there is often no real difference in scores between is because of who is shooting the gun, not the stuff bolted to it.

 

The version of esp and idpa you want isn't going to happen. So stop bashing the division's rules yourself and get out there and practice some more, shoot more matches and say hi if we're ever at the same match. I'm much nicer in person, I promise.

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It's a game. 

 

How would you test holster retention?

 

I personally don't have an issue with trigger jobs on SSP guns. Everyone wants a better trigger. 

 

The best trigger isn't winning matches. Skill of the shooter is!   

 

Now I'm no fan boy!   But it's a game. 

 

 

If someone wants to gripe about scoring,  I'm in. I mean, it's not the actual scoring that bothers me. More the reason for the change. Though, do we really want to beat that dead horse anymore. oh well. It's still fun!

Edited by B_RAD
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