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Holster position infraction - CO


Al Capizzo

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I thought if your holster was not in the position required for whatever division you're shooting in, you were moved to Open division for that match. A friend had more than the maximum 2" between inner belt and gun and was told if they didn't fix it before the start signal they would get a zero for that stage, then be given a chance to fix it.  Is that how it works? 

 

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25 minutes ago, Al Capizzo said:

I thought if your holster was not in the position required for whatever division you're shooting in, you were moved to Open division

 

The issue has to be legal in Open.  This is the open rule on holster placement from the appendix.  

10 Max. distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt Handgun and Mags - 2”

 

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, other-wise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

 

The problem is issue didn't allow them in open either so they would shoot for no score.  As to the zero for the stage, that is incorrect, they shoot the match for no score after the start any stage with illegal equipment.

 

 

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This is the ruling effective 12-8-15:

 

5.2.5.2: Any competitor who fails the foregoing test will immediately adjust his holster or equipment to comply with the requirements of the relevant Division. The Range Master may make allowances for variations in these requirements due to anatomical considerations. Some competitors may not be able to fully comply. Any competitor who shoots a course of fire while out of compliance will receive a zero score for that course of fire, unless specifically exempted by the Range Master. If the RO suspects or is notified that a competitor's equipment is out of compliance for their relevant division, the RO must measure the distances at that time. Penalties will not be retroactive and will be based solely on measurements taken on a particular stage. The RM must be informed of any penalties applied due to non-compliance.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/12/2017 at 2:25 PM, Sarge said:

No bump to open in this case currently. Shoot for no score or fix before shooting!

Zero the stage if not corrected.

Stage Zero is not Retroactive to previous stages shot.

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The question is whether the RO identified that the holster was out of compliance at the start signal. The holster could have moved after the start signal or when the shooter reholstered at ICHDH. If the RO saw the holster was out of spec BEFORE the stage, they should have made the competitor move the holster, and refused to start them until they were in compliance or given an exemption by the RM. If an RO gave me zero for the stage, I'd be asking for an arbitration form.

 

As an RO, I try hard to catch this infraction BEFORE the shooter walks up to the line... ideally during the stage briefing so they have time to go to the safety area and fix it, then get their head back in the game.

 

If I were King, I would eliminate all holster position requirements for Open, then bump all out-of-compliance competitors from other divisions straight to Open immediately upon detection of the violation. This is how we handle other non-compliance situations, and it creates a powerful incentive to make sure your gear is in compliance throughout the match.

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On 5/26/2017 at 11:54 AM, StealthyBlagga said:

The question is whether the RO identified that the holster was out of compliance at the start signal. The holster could have moved after the start signal or when the shooter reholstered at ICHDH. If the RO saw the holster was out of spec BEFORE the stage, they should have made the competitor move the holster, and refused to start them until they were in compliance or given an exemption by the RM. If an RO gave me zero for the stage, I'd be asking for an arbitration form.

 

As an RO, I try hard to catch this infraction BEFORE the shooter walks up to the line... ideally during the stage briefing so they have time to go to the safety area and fix it, then get their head back in the game.

 

If I were King, I would eliminate all holster position requirements for Open, then bump all out-of-compliance competitors from other divisions straight to Open immediately upon detection of the violation. This is how we handle other non-compliance situations, and it creates a powerful incentive to make sure your gear is in compliance throughout the match.

I have warned shooters at matches about out of compliant gear and some of the shooters complained to the RM and I got crap for it.

I think it is best to inform the shooter their gear is out of compliance before they shoot, if you can, in USPSA we are not doing equipment checks at the beginning of each stage.

Sometimes the R.O. won't realize they are out of compliance until after they give the Make Ready Command.

I have seen single stack shooters and production shooters use Mags too long for a Barney mag, you don't realize it until after the make ready command and now they just bumped themselves to Open.

You can arbitrate it but the shooter is responsible for their gear, I am sure they will appreciate your donation.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/26/2017 at 11:54 AM, StealthyBlagga said:

The question is whether the RO identified that the holster was out of compliance at the start signal. The holster could have moved after the start signal or when the shooter reholstered at ICHDH. If the RO saw the holster was out of spec BEFORE the stage, they should have made the competitor move the holster, and refused to start them until they were in compliance or given an exemption by the RM. If an RO gave me zero for the stage, I'd be asking for an arbitration form.

 

As an RO, I try hard to catch this infraction BEFORE the shooter walks up to the line... ideally during the stage briefing so they have time to go to the safety area and fix it, then get their head back in the game.

 

I would think you'd lose that every time. It's the shooters job to make sure their equipment is legal. If you can't do that shoot a division where you can put it where ever you want. 

 

I give everyone a look on the first stage of the day, but I'm not lining shooters up and feeling for everyone hip bones. 

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With a double belt from where is the measurement made? From the inner belt my gun is right on the line but the outer belt is fine.
Also is it to the slide or any given point in the gun? My grips have palmswells that quite a bit wider than the slide and also easily make the measurement.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

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21 minutes ago, gtaylor07 said:

With a double belt from where is the measurement made? From the inner belt my gun is right on the line but the outer belt is fine.
Also is it to the slide or any given point in the gun? My grips have palmswells that quite a bit wider than the slide and also easily make the measurement.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
 

From the rule book:

5.2.5  

  1. Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner:

    — Perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt

    — from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the closest point of the grip of the handgun and/or any reloading device. 

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Keep in mind that the measurement can be taken with your equipment off.

 

5.2.5.1 These measurements may be taken with the equipment as worn or removed (see App. E2).

 

This removes the teeth from the rule, IMO, as a gun's weight can significantly change the distance while worn vs laying on a safe table.

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