California after 7/1 10 round divisions

[ATLDave]

My reaction is that, if you want L10 to be available when you travel outside the restricted-cap states, you guys need to support/participate in it while you're in the state.  Also, L10 is what you're actually shooting, in terms of stage planning and gear.  

 

I mean, I can shoot a 10-round, 9mm, DA/SA, mass-manufactured, non-modified plastic pistol in Limited or even Open if I want.  But why would I do that?  Similarly, if (whether for legal or preference reasons) I am shooting a gun/gear that fits in L10, why would I shoot Limited?  The only reason would be if nobody else has gear that can fit in L10.  But your whole dang state can now fit in L10!  

 

It doesn't really matter to me, of course.  I'm just saying that if a law passes that basically forces people to comply with L10 rules, and people still don't shoot L10... I wouldn't expect L10 to be available for long.  

[sstephns]

The rule states that the maximum capacity limited by the laws of the state will be the maximum for the matches in that state, correct? 

 

I don't see any leeway in the match directors allowing people to break state law. That doesn't jive to me and doesn't make the organization look good on a higher level. Yes it sucks, but there are no local rules, only USPSA rules and the exceptions therein for Level 1 matches such as coaching for new shooters.

[CalTeacher]

23 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

My reaction is that, if you want L10 to be available when you travel outside the restricted-cap states, you guys need to support/participate in it while you're in the state.  Also, L10 is what you're actually shooting, in terms of stage planning and gear.  

 

I mean, I can shoot a 10-round, 9mm, DA/SA, mass-manufactured, non-modified plastic pistol in Limited or even Open if I want.  But why would I do that?  Similarly, if (whether for legal or preference reasons) I am shooting a gun/gear that fits in L10, why would I shoot Limited?  The only reason would be if nobody else has gear that can fit in L10.  But your whole dang state can now fit in L10!  

 

It doesn't really matter to me, of course.  I'm just saying that if a law passes that basically forces people to comply with L10 rules, and people still don't shoot L10... I wouldn't expect L10 to be available for long.  

I can see your point with your first paragraph.  But L10 will have the same rules as Limited.  I can see people just shooting Limited in order to keep their classifications current, or to improve them, so they can shoot it when they go out of state.

[ATLDave]

18 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

I can see your point with your first paragraph.  But L10 will have the same rules as Limited.  I can see people just shooting Limited in order to keep their classifications current, or to improve them, so they can shoot it when they go out of state.

 

OK... but will they be buying special mags for that match while out of state?  Or finally retrieving the ones that were lost in that tragic boating accident?  

 

Or will most of them actually go shoot L10, since that's the (legal) gear they have on hand?

 

Like I said, no skin off my nose either way.  I just would expect a big surge in L10 in CA; otherwise, it needs to go away.  I mean, if the law basically requires people to shoot a division and they still don't shoot it, it just can't be a very good division.  You know?  

[TrackCage]

7 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

 

OK... but will they be buying special mags for that match while out of state?  Or finally retrieving the ones that were lost in that tragic boating accident?  

 

Or will most of them actually go shoot L10, since that's the (legal) gear they have on hand?

 

Like I said, no skin off my nose either way.  I just would expect a big surge in L10 in CA; otherwise, it needs to go away.  I mean, if the law basically requires people to shoot a division and they still don't shoot it, it just can't be a very good division.  You know?  

I'm not a limited or L10 shooter (I shoot production), but here are the opinions I hear around the range. Shooters that currently shoot limited will continue to do so, but loading to 10 rounds. As previously mentioned, they aren't really impacted during classifiers due to mandatory reload requirements. They want to keep working on their limited classifications rather than start over with L10. Then, when they go to area-level matches or other majors, they can use standard capacity magazines rather than neutered mags. Where they get those magazines is of no concern to me. I didn't care to ask.

 

I too am struggling conceptually to understand how L10 survives this. Seems to me that if limited shooters do not make the jump to L10 that there is really no case to keep L10 around. Except for the hiders who want to win a plaque and compete against a handful of shooters they know they can beat. But that's a different thread and has been discussed ad nausium. 

[tanks]

2 hours ago, CalTeacher said:

Because they are the same division now in CA.  For our local matches it really won't be that big of a deal, but when we run larger matches with trophies it will be something we have to get ironed out.

 

There are larger matches with trophies in CA? I don't ever expect to see an Area or a Sectional match in CA due to the mag restrictions. 

[CalTeacher]

32 minutes ago, tanks said:

 

There are larger matches with trophies in CA? I don't ever expect to see an Area or a Sectional match in CA due to the mag restrictions. 

We have level 2 matches, believe it or not 

[CalTeacher]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

 

OK... but will they be buying special mags for that match while out of state?  Or finally retrieving the ones that were lost in that tragic boating accident?  

 

Or will most of them actually go shoot L10, since that's the (legal) gear they have on hand?

 

Like I said, no skin off my nose either way.  I just would expect a big surge in L10 in CA; otherwise, it needs to go away.  I mean, if the law basically requires people to shoot a division and they still don't shoot it, it just can't be a very good division.  You know?  

I don't know of anyone who is actually giving up their magazines.  They'll just remain unseen until they travel to out of state matches.

 

The law isn't requiring people to shoot L10 because Limited is also limited to 10 rounds.  That's what I'm getting at.  They're the same division, and I can see people sticking with Limited to keep their classifiers going in that division.

 

We'll see what happens.  Either way it sucks.

[OPENB]

Can the same classifier shot in Limited, be re-submitted for a L10 score, with the fee paid, without actually being re-shot? Curious.

[ATLDave]

58 minutes ago, CalTeacher said:

The law isn't requiring people to shoot L10 because Limited is also limited to 10 rounds.

It's "not requiring" people to shoot L10 in the same way that a law banning all semi-automatic handguns and opitcs is "not requiring" everyone to shoot Revo.  You can still technically declare Open and shoot your iron-sighted wheelgun.  But your equipment and choices on how to shoot the stages are still Revo.  

 

Like I said, it matters none to me.  If you guys still want to say you're shooting LTD, that has zero adverse impact.  I just wouldn't expect L10 to be kept alive for much longer if the most favorable conditions possible for its success still sees it shunned.  

[HI5-O]

We have been shooting "everything" 10 for a long time. Shooters will adjust to it. We don't like it but it's the law. 

 

LE is exempt in our law but we still download to 10 in competition. We were doing this a long time before USPSA put it in the rule book.  We had a level 2 match here. 

 

I don't see how a match director can make a decision or have the authority to allow shooters to violate a law for a match. 

 

As for Limited/Ltd 10, that debate has been around for a while. For me, I don't care if Ltd 10 stays or goes. With the USPSA rule, Ltd 10 should be disappearing sooner or later. Some may not like my opinion, oh well. 

 

BTW, I shoot mainly in Open ?

 

[motosapiens]

the only issue i see regarding limited vs limited 10 is in classification, and since the percentages for the majority of classifiers are almost if not exactly the same, why not just homogenize it and call it good. just call it limited, and MDs should only offer the 1 division in california and similar states. in free states, it makes sense to keep L10 for tourists and hiders.

[CalTeacher]

1 hour ago, ATLDave said:

It's "not requiring" people to shoot L10 in the same way that a law banning all semi-automatic handguns and opitcs is "not requiring" everyone to shoot Revo.  You can still technically declare Open and shoot your iron-sighted wheelgun.  But your equipment and choices on how to shoot the stages are still Revo.  

 

Like I said, it matters none to me.  If you guys still want to say you're shooting LTD, that has zero adverse impact.  I just wouldn't expect L10 to be kept alive for much longer if the most favorable conditions possible for its success still sees it shunned.  

These are actually the least favorable conditions for L10 because people will be most likely to keep shooting limited in order to keep up with their classification.

 

Limited is the same as L10.  So what I'm saying is why even have L10 at our matches?  You can use the same gun and mags as you could before, while still keeping up with the limited classification.

[CalTeacher]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the only issue i see regarding limited vs limited 10 is in classification, and since the percentages for the majority of classifiers are almost if not exactly the same, why not just homogenize it and call it good. just call it limited, and MDs should only offer the 1 division in california and similar states. in free states, it makes sense to keep L10 for tourists and hiders.

100% this.

[JAFO]

There's nothing in the rules that says you have to offer L10, so if you don't want to offer it at your match, you don't have to (including at any larger matches where awards are given out).  If there are clubs that are getting a consistent (however small) number of L10 competitors before July, I imagine they will continue to offer it, because those people will want to keep up with their classifications in L10.

[motosapiens]

21 minutes ago, JAFO said:

If there are clubs that are getting a consistent (however small) number of L10 competitors before July, I imagine they will continue to offer it, because those people will want to keep up with their classifications in L10.

 

i'm not so sure. I would guess that the sort of people that shoot L10 would *rather* keep classifying in limited, and keep their L10 class one step below, so they can go to other states where no one shoots L10 and pretend to 'win'.  

[TrackCage]

25 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

i'm not so sure. I would guess that the sort of people that shoot L10 would *rather* keep classifying in limited, and keep their L10 class one step below, so they can go to other states where no one shoots L10 and pretend to 'win'.  

Sounds about right to me.

[Religious Shooter]

I'm not seeing the advantage or the point of getting rid of L10.

 

Keep both and let the shooter decide what division they want their classifier to count in.  If you get rid of L10 that means they can't get a classification in L10.  They can only get classified in Limited.

[CalTeacher]

3 hours ago, Religious Shooter said:

I'm not seeing the advantage or the point of getting rid of L10.

 

Keep both and let the shooter decide what division they want their classifier to count in.  If you get rid of L10 that means they can't get a classification in L10.  They can only get classified in Limited.

You can keep L10 only for those who want to shoot it as an extra classifier.  It's an extra $3 to shoot a second classifier at our club.  

[Religious Shooter]

So the advantage is to the club?  They get an extra $3 for when they have to reshoot the classifier to get an L10 classifier?  Shooters won't be able to shoot in L10 to begin with?

[rancher5]

Soon we'll be using Airsoft guns. Maybe some States don't have a particular division like now, don't force 47 other States to restrict

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[CalTeacher]

35 minutes ago, Religious Shooter said:

So the advantage is to the club?  They get an extra $3 for when they have to reshoot the classifier to get an L10 classifier?  Shooters won't be able to shoot in L10 to begin with?

We don't profit from that.  That's the fee to submit a classifier.

 

I see no reason to let shooters participate L10 for entire match if we offer Limited, which will be limited to 10 rounds.  L10 can be offered as a second classifier score instead.  What's the drawback here?

[DagoRed]

Is there some creative way we can have club property annexed to a different state? There's a company in Clovis that has a small spot of property that I understand for contributions to relief efforts after 9/11 has actually been made part of New York. 

 

Frickin' Ca. Glad I had health problems before I bought a PCC gun. I guess I'll just stay with single stack

 

red

[9x45]

CalTeach, what CA club do you belong to that runs Level 2? Richmond, or Sacramento? Hawaii figured out the 10 round thing years ago, and we will have to do the same. As far as LEO, it has no bearing, they can still only load 10 rounds in a stick. It's the same as the Police and Fire Games. 

[CalTeacher]

9 minutes ago, 9x45 said:

CalTeach, what CA club do you belong to that runs Level 2? Richmond, or Sacramento? Hawaii figured out the 10 round thing years ago, and we will have to do the same. As far as LEO, it has no bearing, they can still only load 10 rounds in a stick. It's the same as the Police and Fire Games. 

Our club hasn't run any yet, but that post was referring to "we" as Californians running level 2 matches like Golden Bullet in Northern CA.  We run a 9 stage level 1 trophy match in the fall.