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9mm Trojan jams???


Southpaw

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Ok so it's definitely a mag issue and not a gun issue.  I was just able to re-create the jam with both my Trojan and another 1911, a Rock Island.  I had tried this previously with the RIA a few months back and don't recall being able to get it to jam, but it's harder to re-create at home for some reason than during a match.  And even the ones I re-created here weren't nearly as hard to clear as what happens during the match (figures right! :angry:).

 

To re-create the jam all I had to do was forcefully insert a fully loaded mag into the magwell.  Once I did this I could tell it was locked up without even hitting the slide stop as the mag was stuck fully inserted into the magwell, instead of dropping down slightly into it's normal position like in the 2nd picture I posted on the first page.  Last picture below shows how the mag is stuck with the basepad all the way up touching the frame.

 

Even with the mag stuck all the way up like this, it's still not contacting the ejector.  It looks like the only thing that's holding the mag up like this is how the top round moved out of position in the mag and spread the feed lips out.

 

Here's pictures of the jam in both guns.  Sorry pictures suck; my phone is terrible at taking close up pictures like this...

 

iqYMlCg.jpg

 

Mcnbj6W.jpg

 

aPnmeYP.jpg

 

ciemeqP.jpg

 

wj2t9hX.jpg

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Your pics look similar to my experience. I took the slide off both guns, seated mags forcefully, and the rounds move up. Mine don't move up quite as much as yours but they spread the lips  and the mag sticks in the frame. The round is wedged enough that it must be pushed into the mag with the thumb or dowel before the mag will drop free.

 

My ejector clearance is more than adequate when checked with stuck mag.

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I had this exact issue when my PM-9 was new and I could induce it in my wife's Trojan when she got it. It cost me the WV IDPA state championship before I figured it out. The fix is Chip McCormick mags with the rib in the front. The rounds are seated at the back of the mag, so they don't have enough leverage to wedge themselves into the feed lips. The spacer up front and integral feed ramp ensure reliable feeding. I could induce your problem with any mag with the spacer in the back. I have never had the issue with McCormicks. I have no skin in the game with McCormick, I just know those mags solved this problem. The spring is a little tight, so if slide-forward reloads are tough, take a coil off the bottom of the spring. Hope that helps.


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These are the mags I mentioned above:  http://cmcmags.homestead.com/XP-9mm.html?_=1449872285528

 

Also, get the Dawson basepads for these.  After repeated forceful seatings the rubber base pads will bend and allow over-insertion (experience speaking again).  The Dawson basepads solve the problem.  With these mags and Dawson pads we have had almost zero feeding issues in both of our guns.

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2 hours ago, ewthursby said:

These are the mags I mentioned above:  http://cmcmags.homestead.com/XP-9mm.html?_=1449872285528

 

Also, get the Dawson basepads for these.  After repeated forceful seatings the rubber base pads will bend and allow over-insertion (experience speaking again).  The Dawson basepads solve the problem.  With these mags and Dawson pads we have had almost zero feeding issues in both of our guns.

Interesting, thanks for the info. So who has the best price on these mags? I might have to give them a try. Although it would be nice if I could also get the Dawson/Metalform mags to work as I already have a bunch of those... 

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26 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

Interesting, thanks for the info. So who has the best price on these mags? I might have to give them a try. Although it would be nice if I could also get the Dawson/Metalform mags to work as I already have a bunch of those... 

The best price probably depends on who's having a sale at any particular time.  Obviously, they are spendy from Chip McCormick, but they can be had at Brownells and I'm sure a few other places.

 

As far as getting the Dawson/Metalform mags to work, good luck is about all I have to say unless you want to spend a lot of time retraining yourself to lightly seat mags on slide-lock reloads.  The Dan Wesson factory mags and the Wilson ETM's would both have this same failure in both of our guns.  Basically, anything with a spacer in the back can be made to fail in this way.  I found peace of mind was worth just running the McCormicks since they work all the time.  My wife and I share 10 of them and they work all the time in both guns.  Load the others up for practice when a stoppage doesn't matter as much or you're doing drills without reloads.  Or sell them, lots of people seem to like them and I'm sure they work well for USPSA where slide forward reloads are most desirable. 

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I had been emailing with Dawson about this.  They first suggested squeezing the mags in a vice to get them back to the right dimensions.  I tried that with one of them last night and even after that was still able to get that mag to lock up like I did above.  Also it was then harder to load and unload the mag so I'm not sure if it would even work right now.  I spoke with them today and they said I could send my mags in and they'd adjust them.  So I guess I'll do that which will at least temporarily get them working right again, but I'm sure the feed lips will spread again with more use.

 

I might try some of those Chip McCormick mags.  I asked the person I spoke with at Dawson about those and he said they're really hard to seat fully loaded on a closed slide.  I had that same thing with a Wilson mag and cut 2 coils off the spring and now it's ok.  So I might try some of those mags.  Or just be more careful on slide lock reloads.  Really I shouldn't have many of those in USPSA anyway unless I really blow a stage :blush:

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2 minutes ago, dansedgli said:

You could always disable your slide stop. How often do you run it dry?

 

Well technically I never should, but occasionally it does happen :goof:.  With a disabled slides stop should I ever run the gun dry I'd first pull the trigger and get a click, then have to reload and rack the slide.  That seems slower than going to slide lock and reloading while being careful to insert the mag slower.  But really, none of that should be necessary; the mags should work as they're designed to.  That's what's surprising me the most about this, that there doesn't seem to be an actual solution for making these mags work properly with a normal reload...

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Keep in mind that platform and mags were designed around the 38 supper cartridge not 9mm. Bullet stacking on a 9 will always be an issue. That's why the barrel fit to frame is so important aswell as keeping your rounds long goes along way to helping reliability.

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This has nothing to do with "design" issues or anything else like that, and is clearly not an over insertion issue now. 

 

The magazine shown has comically deformed lips, it's clearly obvious with those pictures, only the rearmost portion of the cartridge could possibly be held in place by that mag to begin with.  All mags, dedicated 9 and 38S with spacers, don't have that ridiculous 3 degree outward splay like that.

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For reference, I took a 9mm mag, loaded a cartridge, locked the slide back, and slammed her home much more vigorously than I actually do, and removed it.  Then repeated the process with a 9mm cartridge in a 38 Super mag, and placed them on the table for a photoshoot next to identical mags without rounds.

 

Note how all the feedlips are nice and parallel, with the cartridge retained inside the mag body, even after an overly violent slide back insertion, while your mag is so bent out of shape that the rear of the mag lips (the actual width they should be), quickly spreads out several 100ths of an inch only about an eighth the way up the cartridge.

 

You need a new mag.

 

 

9 in 38S mag.jpg

9 mag.jpg

iqYMlCg.jpg

Edited by JimmyBob
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It might be the angle of the pictures and that when the top round locks up the gun like that it spreads the feed lips more than they normally are, but looking at the mags in person compared to a new one it doesn't look comically deformed. Dawson said the feed lips spec is .325-.335", mine all measure around .345-.348" at the front of the feed lips. And it's not just one mag, it's all of them after some use.

 

I haven't abused these mags at all and I don't slam mags in on slide lock any harder than normal. And these mags really haven't seen that much use; the gun has 3k total rounds through it across about 10 mags. So it took that little use to cause the feed lips to spread to the point they're causing these jams. 

 

So now at this point the feed lips need to be reshaped, I tried Dawson's recommendation of using a vice and couldn't get that to work so I need to send the mags to them. I don't shoot SS much; if I actually shot it a lot it seems like at this rate I'd need to have the feed lips reshaped every few months. And each time they spread and are reshaped the metal gets weaker and will then spread again more easily. That's why I said it's a design issue. 

Edited by Southpaw
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4 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 it doesn't look comically deformed. Dawson said the feed lips spec is .325-.335", mine all measure around .345-.448" at the front of the feed lips

 

Ok... 

 

Your own measurements show that your mags are completely deformed and out of spec , to put it in perspective, 9mm cartridges are less than .4" across. So the front of your feed lips have a gap wider than the widest point of a 9mm casing.

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2 minutes ago, JimmyBob said:

 

Ok... 

 

Your own measurements show that your mags are completely deformed and out of spec , to put it in perspective, 9mm cartridges are less than .4" across. So the front of your feed lips have a gap wider than the widest point of a 9mm casing.

Oops, typo. That should have been .345-.348". I'll edit that now.

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  • 1 month later...

Took me a while to do more testing - t6-t7 fused!

 

I took two 9mm single stacks to the range, a commander sized DW and an STI Trojan.

I ran 10 drills per gun. Shoot six with six in the gun, reload with a full 10round and shoot six.

I shot 124gr plated and coated RN's. The 147gr were coated, plated, RN and FPs. OAL's ran from 1.135 to 1.150.

Mags were a mix of Dawson, Wilson(both types of follower) and DW mags. All 10round mags.

 

I cut way back on the force and tried to maintain speed. Sort of felt like sliding them home.

 

Not a single jam in either gun.

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