You faster with your PCC or Pistol?

[Broncman]

Gearing up to do one PCC match and one Pistol (CO) match a month. Got in about 30 minutes of live fire today before the rain. With mag changes, I am faster PCC, throw in a mag change and it swings to pistol.

 

What's your mileage?

[Flatland Shooter]

First shot on target much faster with PCC.  

 

Reloads a bit faster with pistol (open gun with big magwell) but PCC reloads continue to improve with practice.  

 

Accuracy much better with PCC.  Splits about even between the two but transitions better with PCC.

 

FWIW, I've had a "B" card in Open for many, many years.  With PCC I made "A in my first six classifiers.

 

Fun level, PCC is through the roof.

 

Bill

[Broncman]

Really struggling with this! I have made some great progress in my pistol this past couple months. Lot of practice and my classifier times recently are getting in the A'S. Really struggling on which to shoot at ORSA this month. Leaning heavily on sticking with my pistol to see how I stack up. 

 

Both are a lot of fun. Wish there was a 2 gun match!

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: It depends on the stage design. Wide open, long shots I am faster with the PCC. Close with lots of transitions I am faster with the open pistol. What I have found is that shooting the PCC for a while now has actually made me a better open shooter. Going to shoot open in the next couple of matches to see if that is actually true or just in my mind. Thanks, Eric

[Shepard]

I have this conversation all the time with people who think the PCC is always an advantage. I'm Limited M and started shooting PCC exclusively about 4 months ago. Like Eric said above, its all about the stage design.  Close targets with a lot of swinging back and forth or ports and I'll take the pistol every time. Distance targets with fewer setups and PCC wins. 

[Alvin]

I've been shooting the PCC for over a year now....been shooting pistols in USPSA since 1991....no question...faster with the PCC.  I shoot pistol and PCC at the matches(yes, two divisions at every match, no problem).  The PCC is always faster no matter what other division I shoot.  Open, Limited, or Limited 10....always the same.  Actually, it almosts feels like I'm cheating.  Others that have started shooting PCC at my local matches are the same...faster with the PCCs and it seems that most of the PCC shooters are at the top of the HOA for the matches.

[L9X25]

As a club statistician, I can say that PCC has a significant advantage over the course of an entire match.  I see people who have been shooting for years and are historically upper mid-pack shooters rise to the top of the combined overall scores, with nothing more than swapping to a PCC.  We generally have a few PCC's in the top 5 every match.  Some of this has to do with the magazine capacity advantage and the fact that a PCC trivializes the accuracy component of any common pistol match.    Mandatory reloads can help level the playing field somewhat, but how often to do we usually see those?  Maybe once or twice a match?  

[Shepard]

Interesting results. For the sake of conversation my observations are a little different. We average  50-60 shooters with 4-5 M/GM depending on who shows up. Typically the same people are in the hunt for HOA regardless of what they shoot. At this weekend's match, out of 68 shooters PCC finished: 

2nd 

23rd

31

32

33

62nd

63rd

In my humble opinion the only platform with a clear advantage is Open. Is has the dot and scores major. The PCC helps me when the shots are 20+ yards for stability and trigger control. Inside of 20 yards the bonus, for me, is the dot not the rifle platform. Its 3 feet long, 8lbs loaded, and scores minor.  And, the majority of targets are well inside 20 yards.  As far as mag changes, I really think it depends on skill level not platform. Of the A and better shooters I know they don't really consider mag changes an issue as long as there is a little movement between positions.  So the question is why, on the average USPSA stage, does the PCC help some people and hinder others? Aside from the dot which Open and Carry Optics have I think the PCC helps some people with their trigger control.  Of course, as trigger control skill increases the benefit of the rifle platform lessens and some of its negatives creep in.

I hope my comments are not perceived as argumentative. I really enjoy the PCC vs ______ conversation and intend it to be light-hearted.   

 

[Flatland Shooter]

3 hours ago, L9X25 said:

Mandatory reloads can help level the playing field somewhat, but how often to do we usually see those?  Maybe once or twice a match?  

 

I shot an indoor match last night where the MD makes it a point to hit competitor's weaknesses.  In four stages, three stages had mandatory reloads, one included weak hand shooting and one had tight targets out to 25 yards.  I was the only PCC shooter but knowing that the MD likes to challenge folks, lots of practice reloading prior to his match helped.

[L9X25]

Shepard,

 

I think that the difficulty of the match has a lot to do with which platform is at an advantage.  Our range configuration gives us the ability to have shots out to 30+ yards and we often have several shots out that far.  We also have a lot of partials with no-shoots out at 20+ yards.  We utilize lots of steel, including USPSA poppers out to 20 yards.

 

We had 60 shooters at our last match and an Open shooter did win the match.  However, positions 2-3-4 were PCC shooters and they also comprised 9 of the top 16.  Not bad when there were only 16 total PCC shooters at the match.    With no disparagement intended toward any of the 2-3-4 position finishers, they would not generally be that high while shooting theirs pistols at a comparable match.   

 

While this may not be a typical situation, I can say confidently say that a PCC is generally an advantage at our club.

[Texas45]

 

My reason for changing from Limited to PCC is because of a hand injury that prevents, for the time being, my  shooting a Limited or Open platform.

 

I must say I am really enjoying the PCC.  I feel I am moving better between targets.  Can/do keep the rifle up and ready as I move, so I am shooting at the target quicker as I enter the target array.  I can shoot from longer distances with greater accuracy.  Zero recoil issues.

I am hearing a lot of flax from my fellow shooters, many I have shot with for years, that it is not a fair gun to shoot in a "pistol" sport.  PCC should have it's own shoot, not be combined with pistols etc.etc. etc. PCC is winning all the HOA's because of not having to draw, mags with capacities that are unreal, and on and on.  But for me it gives me the opportunity to shoot his year while healing and I have heard from several people that had given up USPSA and were just ROing because of injury, eye sight, old age and they now are excited about shooting again.  Just my 2 cents

[Broncman]

I am torn, my first love is my pistol and this is my first year in pistol competition. Really want to see how far I can get in one year in CO. My Scorpion is a lot of fun though.

 

Is your USPSA classification based on your division or just a percentage of everyone for the classifiers you shoot?

 

In other words, is a GM obtained from PCC the same as one from an Open gun or Limited etc?

[Flatland Shooter]

 

49 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Is your USPSA classification based on your division or just a percentage of everyone for the classifiers you shoot?

 

In other words, is a GM obtained from PCC the same as one from an Open gun or Limited etc?

 

PCC, just like Open, Production, Revolver, etc is a separate division so to get that PCC GM card you will shoot the lights out with your PCC on several classifiers.

 

As for percentage, you will still need to average above 95% to get that card.

 

Bill

[Flatland Shooter]

1 hour ago, Texas45 said:

I am hearing a lot of flax from my fellow shooters, many I have shot with for years, that it is not a fair gun to shoot in a "pistol" sport.  PCC should have it's own shoot, not be combined with pistols etc.etc. etc. 

 

I shoot PCC because its fun.  

 

The fact it pisses off some folks is just gravy.

 

Bil

[Broncman]

Is that 95% of other PCC'ers or everyone?

[jlo86cj]

1 minute ago, Broncman said:

Is that 95% of other PCC'ers or everyone?

PCC and Open. They share the same high hit factors.

[L9X25]

1 minute ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

I shoot PCC because its fun.  

 

The fact it pisses off some folks is just gravy.

 

Bil

 

Our club accepted PCC with open arms and we actually scored them as Revolver before the programs were modified to accept them.  From the beginning I said that this

would be all fun and games until the PCC guys started kicking everyone's butt and the pistol shooters would say "we need to do something about those PCC guys".  

We are getting there fast!

 

Broncman, you are only compared to others in the same division.  There are lots of GM's that shoot PCC to use for percentages.

 

[Flatland Shooter]

5 minutes ago, Broncman said:

Is that 95% of other PCC'ers or everyone?

 

The highest hit factor for a classifier (possibly shot by some super-pro or even a local John Doe) is considered 100%.  If that HF is 10.0, then anyone that turns in scores for that classifier that has a 9.5 HF (95% of the top 10.0 HF) is considered a GM score.

 

Grand Master 95 to 100%

Master 85 to 94.9%

A Class 75 to 84.9%

B Class 60 to 74.9%

C Class 40 to 59.9%

D Class Below 40%

 

Unless it changed recently, to get the ball rolling the USPSA is using the top 100% Open HF as the top 100% HF for PCC.  Once they get a bunch of PCC classifiers turned in that may change.

 

Bill

[Shepard]

1 hour ago, L9X25 said:

Shepard,

 

I think that the difficulty of the match has a lot to do with which platform is at an advantage.  Our range configuration gives us the ability to have shots out to 30+ yards and we often have several shots out that far.  We also have a lot of partials with no-shoots out at 20+ yards.  We utilize lots of steel, including USPSA poppers out to 20 yards.

 

We had 60 shooters at our last match and an Open shooter did win the match.  However, positions 2-3-4 were PCC shooters and they also comprised 9 of the top 16.  Not bad when there were only 16 total PCC shooters at the match.    With no disparagement intended toward any of the 2-3-4 position finishers, they would not generally be that high while shooting theirs pistols at a comparable match.   

 

While this may not be a typical situation, I can say confidently say that a PCC is generally an advantage at our club.

 

It sounds like we are pretty much in agreement. At our club we see a majority of hoser stages with only the occasional distance shot.  On the distance stages the PCC really shines.

 

I think PCC really needs its own classifier percentages. On classifiers where we aren't having to turn or shoot with only one hand It's definitely an advantage. 

 

[jlo86cj]

34 minutes ago, L9X25 said:

Broncman, you are only compared to others in the same division.  There are lots of GM's that shoot PCC to use for percentages.

 

 

They are still using HHF's from Open. There only appears to be 14 GM's in PCC if you look at the top 20 page.

[L9X25]

I think they just did that to start, but will be converting to actual scores soon, if they have not already done it.  

[Flatland Shooter]

Once PCC has its own high hit factors for classifiers, will some of us see our classification go down?  

 

I do not belong in "A".  I like being in "B".  That's where I belong.

[Maximis228]

3 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

Once PCC has its own high hit factors for classifiers, will some of us see our classification go down?  

 

I do not belong in "A".  I like being in "B".  That's where I belong.

 

This is why the classification system just needs to go away.

[1911luvr]

  It sounds like we are pretty much in agreement. At our club we see a majority of hoser stages with only the occasional distance shot.  On the distance stages the PCC really shines.

 

I think PCC really needs its own classifier percentages. On classifiers where we aren't having to turn or shoot with only one hand It's definitely an advantage. 

 

 

Pistol is an advantage for shorter distance targets with wide spacing between them, and theoretically reloads, however most people reload on the run between engagement locations so I don't really count that. Hoser stages are pretty much an even field, but the real advantage comes to pistols in the way of moving in and around cover. Trying to shoot through a left-hand window at a target on the far right side is an extremely difficult shot. Even an SBR is hard to negotiate around certain obstacles and through small windows. What gun wins is entirely dependent upon the stage layout and the skill (or lack of skill) of the operators.

 

I was just at the World Speed Shooting Championships this last week, and the overalls were dominated by pistol shooters. Guys who are grandmasters in both disciplines still finished higher with their pistols.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Flatland Shooter]

A local club is hosting their monthly USPSA match next Saturday.  They have a new match director and they are billing it as a "PCC match (but pistol shooters are welcomed to give it a try)".  Anticipate some longer shots than normal.

 

The results might be interesting.

 

Bill

Edited May 9, 2017 by Flatland Shooter