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Rules for scoring level 2 matches


chad72

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2 minutes ago, dvrdwn72 said:

Ok, what about while reloading?

 

Read section 10 of the rulebook.  There are several subsections that describe all the DQ'able infractions.

 

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the "Make Ready" command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

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7 minutes ago, JAFO said:

I seem to recall there was a discussion on whether you could be considered "aiming" at a target without being able to shoot at it for score, as in having your finger on the trigger as you approach a target around a mesh wall.  The shooter can't shoot it yet, but they know it's there and start aiming and prepping their shot as they move around the wall.  And there would be those who would argue you could do the same when it's a solid wall, since you know it's there and you are "aiming" where you know it will be.

 If they are not actively engaging a target and they are moving with their finger in the trigger guard, DQ them, call the RM, let the shooter argue his case.

 

Paste and reset, run the next shooter.

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9 minutes ago, JAFO said:

I think the question came about because 8.5.1 says "aiming or shooting at targets".


8.5.1  Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The handgun must be pointed in a safe direction.

Fingers must be Visibly outside the trigger guard, if a target is not available to shoot, how can you be aiming at it or shooting at it?

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14 minutes ago, bret said:

Fingers must be Visibly outside the trigger guard, if a target is not available to shoot, how can you be aiming at it or shooting at it?

 

A target need not be visible to be shot. Both in uspsa and life. Even more so a target need not be visible to aim at it. 

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37 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

I guess it comes down to the word "may" in 8.6.4.

 

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire.

 

If you feel your warning interfered, as the RO you have the option of offering a reshoot.  There's nothing that says you can't.  But if I give a warning and I don't perceive that it interfered with your run, I would not be inclined to offer one after you finish the run.

 

Makes sense to me. 

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3 minutes ago, theWacoKid said:

 

A target need not be visible to be shot. Both in uspsa and life. Even more so a target need not be visible to aim at it. 


That is a discussion to have with the RM after the DQ, if the RM agree's with you, then it is a reshoot.
 

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1 hour ago, bret said:


8.5.1  Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The handgun must be pointed in a safe direction.

Fingers must be Visibly outside the trigger guard, if a target is not available to shoot, how can you be aiming at it or shooting at it?

 

It's easy to aim at a target even though it's not available to shoot yet.  In the case of snow fence or mesh walls, it's obvious.  

 

Even with solid walls or barrels, most of us plan on where to aim on the edge of a solid wall or barrel during walkthroughs so that your sight is in the A zone as you advance into position.

 

IMO, the first part of aiming at a target involves the acquisition of the sights/dot.  If a shooter is acquiring their sights/dot in the final portion of getting into a shooting position, I would consider that aiming at targets.

Edited by d_striker
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2 hours ago, dvrdwn72 said:

Don't have the rule book in front of me, but isn't it a dq for finger on trigger while not actively engaging targets?

no. there are some situations where it is a dq, but others where it is not.

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7 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

 Good discussion I think.

 

Seems like 8.6.4 would give the shooter an excellent case for a reshoot?

8.6.4 talks about 'inadvertent contact', (which is not a safety warning), or 'other external influence' (which is also not a safety warning). Other external influences are things like a dog running onto the COF, or someone nearby yelling something that sounds like 'stop', or wind blowing a banner so it flaps down in the shooters way. Nothing in 8.6.4 has anything to do with safety warnings in any way, shape, or form.

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A key part to me on the finger in the trigger is where is the gun pointed?  Up at eye level and seeking targets?  Hard to say not aiming at or engaging targets.  Down below eye level as they move from one array to the next?  Not aiming or seeking, looks and sounds like moving?  Newer shooters tend to keep the gun up at eye level as they move through the stage and most are good about keeping their finger off the trigger until they get on the target but it is a gray area.  It is a judgment call on the RO's part.

 

As to some of the other issues raised in this thread, I am a believer in issuing warnings before the shooter can DQ themselves if possible.  It is usually the newer shooter where the adrenalin rush of shooting the stage has scrambled their brain cells.  On some of these shooters I can see they are on an adrenalin high so I take the time to tell them to "take a DEEEEEP BREEEAATH and relax"  "Now while facing down range slowly ULASC,  ICHDH".  This seems to reset their brains to a situational and safety attitude. 

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33 minutes ago, d_striker said:

 

It's easy to aim at a target even though it's not available to shoot yet.  In the case of snow fence or mesh walls, it's obvious.  

 

Even with solid walls or barrels, most of us plan on where to aim on the edge of a solid wall or barrel during walkthroughs so that your sight is in the A zone as you advance into position.

 

IMO, the first part of aiming at a target involves the acquisition of the sights/dot.  If a shooter is acquiring their sights/dot in the final portion of getting into a shooting position, I would consider that aiming at targets.

 

agreed. this is the way every experienced RO or RM i have worked with has interpreted it.

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4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

We disagree, no worries. 

 

 

I appreciate your willingness to discuss and look at both sides. perhaps it would be a good idea for us to get some guidance from an experienced RM, or from Troy. You may be right, but at least we will know we aren't enforcing our own personal version of the rulebook that is different from everyone else's. :cheers: 

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8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire.

 

A key words here are inadvertent and may.  I will intentionally and physically stop you from breaking the 180.  If that gun is coming around towards me or the gallery AND you are not trying to engage a target, I will do my part to stop you before you can bring the gun around that far.  I will not offer a reshoot.

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11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I appreciate your willingness to discuss and look at both sides. perhaps it would be a good idea for us to get some guidance from an experienced RM, or from Troy. You may be right, but at least we will know we aren't enforcing our own personal version of the rulebook that is different from everyone else's. :cheers: 

 

Agreed!

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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

I appreciate your willingness to discuss and look at both sides. perhaps it would be a good idea for us to get some guidance from an experienced RM, or from Troy. You may be right, but at least we will know we aren't enforcing our own personal version of the rulebook that is different from everyone else's. :cheers: 

 

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Agreed!

 

As you wish ...

 

Moto ... You're correct.

 

IHAVEGAS ... Sorry, but your reading of the 2 rules is unsupported.

 

L1636

USPSA RM

IROA CRO

 

 

ps ... I'm quite confident that Troy (or any of the RMIs) will agree with my assessment should they choose to weigh in.

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43 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

ps ... I'm quite confident that Troy (or any of the RMIs) will agree with my assessment should they choose to weigh in.

 

Last time I got into one of these (subject was opening up magwells on production guns) my RM/NROI and a local RM said the opposite of what Troy eventually said, so I wrote my instructor and he told me he had to call things according to the way the rule book was written but Troy has the final say. 

 

Would be valuable to hear from Troy on this one. 

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21 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Last time I got into one of these (subject was opening up magwells on production guns) my RM/NROI and a local RM said the opposite of what Troy eventually said, so I wrote my instructor and he told me he had to call things according to the way the rule book was written but Troy has the final say. 

 

 

And therein lies the rub!!!!

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Also, it would help if the ROs know guns. In one match where I was shooting my HK VP9 RO yelled trigger as I was releasing the mag, yelled again the second time and had me stop and show clear etc.. I had to reshoot the stage once I showed him that the mag release was inside the trigger guard. I have "Trump" hands so I have to use my index finger to actuate the release.

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1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Last time I got into one of these (subject was opening up magwells on production guns) my RM/NROI and a local RM said the opposite of what Troy eventually said, so I wrote my instructor and he told me he had to call things according to the way the rule book was written but Troy has the final say. 

 

Would be valuable to hear from Troy on this one. 

 

You asked ... I answered.  This is not the first time I've seen this issue raised.  Hence, I'm relatively confident on my reply.  But, as you say, Troy has been known to provide a different answer, from time to time.

 

But just like John Amidon before him, neither one has ever claimed to be omniscient or infallible.  They do the best they can just like the rest of us.

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9 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

You asked ... I answered.  

 

Thank you.

 

Sometimes there is a tendency to come across as stubborn when looking for an answer that you could back up to a shooter during a match.Not my intent.

 

 

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11 hours ago, tanks said:

Also, it would help if the ROs know guns. In one match where I was shooting my HK VP9 RO yelled trigger as I was releasing the mag, yelled again the second time and had me stop and show clear etc.. I had to reshoot the stage once I showed him that the mag release was inside the trigger guard. I have "Trump" hands so I have to use my index finger to actuate the release.

I would have stopped you too. The rule addresses finger in the trigger guard not why it's in there.

 In my opinion a gun that makes you break a rule to shoot it should not be allowed.

  But, since it is allowed the shooter could avoid a lot of issues by pointing out the flawed design to RO's so they can confer with the RM on how to handle it.

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Yeppers.  Finger in the trigger guard is a no-no. 

 

Local match  would probably give you a pass. 

 

Higher matches with a bunch of different RO/CROs that would be a tough call for the RM especially since the rules are to be applied to all.

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Perhaps i'm the only one who has google, but you don't really have to put your finger *in* the trigger guard to release the magazine on a vp9, you just have to put it on the side of the trigger guard. It looks perfectly legal to me, and i think one of our local M class production guys shoots one. I can easily see how an RO who wasn't aware of it would want your finger 'visibly' out of the trigger guard tho, like the rulebook says. I would just deal with that by letting the RO know before the stage.

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