Sarge Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Did I miss an update to the rule book or something? Last local match I shot all start positions said wrists/ hands below belt. Now I just read it in the rules question for the fla sectional. Did arms relaxed at sides get too complicated or too hard to enforce all of a sudden. I'm hear to tell you hands below belt gives a lot of leeway to a shooter who wants to Start with hands raised towards the gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calebj06 Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 I read that as well and it looked odd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Perfectly legal description. Odd, but legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 I prefer the more anatomically correct, "wrists at end of arms". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 FWIW: They did "wrists below bottom edge of belt" at the Open/L-10 nationals last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 10 hours ago, Sarge said: Did I miss an update to the rule book or something? Last local match I shot all start positions said wrists/ hands below belt. Now I just read it in the rules question for the fla sectional. Did arms relaxed at sides get too complicated or too hard to enforce all of a sudden. I'm hear to tell you hands below belt gives a lot of leeway to a shooter who wants to Start with hands raised towards the gun that's why they, almost every florida match i've been to, do it; because it gives a lot of leeway. it's not really about enforcement as it is about freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distant Thunder Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Or it could be a diabolical plan to put a final stake to the heart of the fashion of wearing pants/shorts pulled halfway down the butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 There tends to be a lot of shooters who have a hard time with the relaxed part of relaxed at sides and RO enforcement of that portion of the start position is spotty at best. what actually defines "relaxed", now defining an actual location for the hands at the start seems like you will get much more consistent enforcement by the RO's because there is no question weather they are relaxed enough only if they meet the position defined in the stage description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 I find it somewhat comical that there is so much discussion about the competitor ready position. The problem stems from shooters wanting to apply "freestyle" before the beep and ROs not enforcing the rule as written. References: - 8.2.2, especially the second sentence - Most ANY dictionary definition of erect, as it would pertain to standing - Facing downrange ... Downrange is expressly defined in the glossary - For those who cannot put it all together, the rule points to a picture in Appendix E3 If we were to simply enforce the above a lot of the discussion of start positions would simply go away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent1k1 Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 The flexibility of the start actually allows for more consistency. All the "I am relaxed, no your not" stuff at the start. It sort of turns this back into a Freestyle Shooting sport with the emphasis on shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said: There tends to be a lot of shooters who have a hard time with the relaxed part of relaxed at sides and RO enforcement of that portion of the start position is spotty at best. what actually defines "relaxed", now defining an actual location for the hands at the start seems like you will get much more consistent enforcement by the RO's because there is no question weather they are relaxed enough only if they meet the position defined in the stage description. This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 The rule does not say "relaxed" it states "naturally" as demonstrated in Appx. E3. That is where you get in to trouble, because a number of shooters say they are standing in a natural position when actually in tension. By stating wrists below the top or bottom of the belt as allowed by the rules, it removes all questions if they are in the proper position. Freestyle starts with the start signal, not before. IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 3 hours ago, JayWord said: The rule does not say "relaxed" it states "naturally" as demonstrated in Appx. E3. That is where you get in to trouble, because a number of shooters say they are standing in a natural position when actually in tension. By stating wrists below the top or bottom of the belt as allowed by the rules, it removes all questions if they are in the proper position. Freestyle starts with the start signal, not before. IMHO. good point, I cant even tell the difference between relaxed and naturally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 My relaxed state changes the closer I get to the start signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamboo Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Floridian shooters with gator arms that don't reach below their belt when they are "relaxed"? Who woulda thunk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 On 05/02/2017 at 8:02 AM, Distant Thunder said: Or it could be a diabolical plan to put a final stake to the heart of the fashion of wearing pants/shorts pulled halfway down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prov1x Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Relaxed at sides is a pet peeve of mine, 3/4 people are just dildos when it comes to that. So aggravating, relax your F'ing arms!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distant Thunder Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 3 hours ago, johnbu said: My eyes! My eyes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Most of the people I see with questionable "relaxed" arm position seem to be Lim/Open shooters with race-type holsters who just don't want to lay their arms against the gun once they unlock the holster. I'd always assumed they were trying to avoid a dropped gun DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 31 minutes ago, JAFO said: Most of the people I see with questionable "relaxed" arm position seem to be Lim/Open shooters with race-type holsters who just don't want to lay their arms against the gun once they unlock the holster. I'd always assumed they were trying to avoid a dropped gun DQ. plus the holsters and mags are totally in the way of where arms hanging naturally would like to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) Wrists below belt allows me to get my hand a lot higher and closer to the grip than hanging naturally at sides. My elbows are seriously bent... It gets me about 6" closer to the gun. Edited May 3, 2017 by Yardbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 49 minutes ago, Yardbird said: Wrists below belt allows me to get my hand a lot higher and closer to the grip than hanging naturally at sides. My elbows are seriously bent... It gets me about 6" closer to the gun. So? Does it actually make you faster on the draw than how you would normally stand when you practice? I have run stages with "hands in any legal position" in the WSB and you see all sorts of weird hand positions trying to game the start, I have never seen it be noticeably faster for anyone, but I have seen it be slower as they are not starting from their normally practiced position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Same draw stroke, just 1/3 the distance... My fingers are about 3" - 4" from the grip instead of 10" - 11". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Looks like if I lowered my gun 2" on the mount, I could start with my hand around the grip not quite touching the gun. Just pointing out the facts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Just now, Yardbird said: Looks like if I lowered my gun 2" on the mount, I could start with my hand around the grip not quite touching the gun. Just pointing out the facts... Me too If you lower you gun would the but still be above the top of the belt ? if not the holster position would be illegal and need to be adjusted. you would need to have interesting anatomy to have your wrist below your belt and your gun in a legal position with your hand around the grip :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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