Question on Penalties - Stage 1 at USPSA Florida Section Championship

[JupiterAdam]

Question on Penalties - Stage 1 at USPSA Florida Section Championship

 

Stage 1 at USPSA Florida Section Championship was a standards type stage.  The stage information is as follows:

 

I Love Standards! 

Course Designer: Manny Bragg 

Rules: Practical Shooting Handbook, Latest Edition

 

START POSITION: Standing in shooting area, wrists below belt.

 

GUN READY CONDITION: Loaded and Holstered as per rulebook

 

STAGE PROCEDURE: String 1: on signal engage T1-T7 with only one round each Freestyle, perform mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T7 with one round each Strong Hand only. 

String 2: on signal engage T1-T7 with only one round each Freestyle, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T7 with one round each Weak Hand only.

 

SCORING: Virginia 28 rounds, 140 pts. 

TARGETS: 7 Metric 

SCORED HITS: Best 4 on paper. 

START-STOP: Audible / Last Shot 

PENALTIES: Per USPSA

 

*******

 

Actual Scenario:  Upon the start signal, the shooter draws, fires one shot at each target using a strong hand only grip, performs reload, then fires one shot at each target using a freestyle grip (both hands on gun).  Second string was completed in accordance with stage procedure (e.g., one shot at each target using a freestyle grip (both hands), reload, one shot at each target using a weak hand only grip)

 

Question:  What penalty or penalties, if any, should be assessed? 

 

Options include, but are not limited to: 

 

A.  No Penalty - Reasoning: No failure to comply with stage description (10.1.1) as there is an implicit ability for the competitor to choose to first shoot using a freestyle grip (both hands) or a strong hand only grip and then choose to use the other type of grip after the reload.  Key is to use one type of grip before reload and one type of grip after reload. 

 

B.  One Procedural Penalty under 10.2.2 – Reasoning: Competitor failed to comply with the stated procedure of using a freestyle grip (both hands) prior to reload and strong hand only grip after reload. The competitor is deemed not to have “gained a significant advantage during non-compliance” (i.e., the actions by competitor were correct, just in the wrong order) 

 

C.  Seven Procedural Penalty under 10.2.2 – Reasoning: Competitor’s choice to shoot the first seven shots strong hand only is permitted as within the choice of shooting “freestyle”.  The competitor is penalize for each noncomplying shot (used two handed freestyle grip rather than strong hand only grip) after the reload because the competitor “gained a significant advantage” on each such shot. 

 

D.  Seven Procedural Penalty under 10.2.8.1 – Reasoning: Competitor’s choice to shoot the first seven shots strong hand only is permitted as within the choice of shooting “freestyle”.  The competitor is penalize for each shot after the reload because he touched the handgun during the required strong hand only grip.

 

 

Referenced Rules:

 

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance).

 

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

Edited May 1, 2017 by JupiterAdam

[MikeBurgess]

procedural per shot fired, per 10.2.8 this rule is the most direct match with the infraction so it would be the one you would use. 

 

edited to be less confusing 

Edited May 1, 2017 by MikeBurgess

[ChuckS]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

procedural per shot fired, per 10.2.8 this rule is the most direct match with the infraction so it would be the one you would use. 

 

edited to be less confusing 

10.2.8.1 (to be even less confusing )

[basman]

Did the competitor gain an advantage?

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, ChuckS said:

10.2.8.1 (to be even less confusing )

I think the implication  (while not clearly stated) in that section is that the shooting is being done with the correct hand but the other hand is still in use 

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, basman said:

Did the competitor gain an advantage?

Doesn't matter penalty still applies

[George Jones]

Illegal stage - 1.2.2.1

[teros135]

43 minutes ago, George Jones said:

Illegal stage - 1.2.2.1

Indeed.  6 rounds max, they did 7.  Wonder how it got approved?

[terrydoc]

I would go B. for failing to follow written stage brief

[Shadyscott999]

Option Z:  Toss stage.  Not legal

 

[ChuckS]

It is 7 per 10.2.8.1. Then arb the stage. It gets tossed. Zero penalties

[Nik Habicht]

I'm with George and Chuck.....

[calebj06]

2 hours ago, George Jones said:

Illegal stage - 1.2.2.1

You guys are good

[Schutzenmeister]

2 hours ago, George Jones said:

Illegal stage - 1.2.2.1

+1 ... Toss the stage.

 

[EEH]

To late it's over !

[terrydoc]

How about ignoring whether it's a legal stage or not and answer the question about procedurals? How else do people learn?

Edited May 2, 2017 by terrydoc

[nuidad]

We had a similar situation at a local match but the legality of the stage was not an issue...loaded table start, Virginia count, six metric targets, one per target sitting, reload, one per target standing.  Two shooters stood for the first 6, reloaded and sat for the final 6.  One shooter stood for all 12.  How should this have been scored.  One question being asked was, did the shooters gain significant advantage by standing rather than sitting or vice versa (10.2.1)? 

Edited May 2, 2017 by nuidad
clarification

[ChuckS]

25 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

How about ignoring whether it's a legal stage or not and answer the question about procedurals? How else do people learn?

We did. It's 7 procedurals per 10.2.8.1. The shooter used both hands during part of a string that was supposed to be strong hand only.

[Sarge]

7 hours ago, nuidad said:

We had a similar situation at a local match but the legality of the stage was not an issue...loaded table start, Virginia count, six metric targets, one per target sitting, reload, one per target standing.  Two shooters stood for the first 6, reloaded and sat for the final 6.  One shooter stood for all 12.  How should this have been scored.  One question being asked was, did the shooters gain significant advantage by standing rather than sitting or vice versa (10.2.1)? 

Significant advantage and failure to follow instructions are two separate things. If you fail to follow instructions that's what you get penalized for.

[teros135]

Doesn't shooting freestyle after the reload create a significant advantage, compared to those who followed the imstructions?  (Remember, we officiate on the basis of what the competitor did, not what we think he/she intended.)

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Doesn't shooting freestyle after the reload create a significant advantage, compared to those who followed the imstructions?  (Remember, we officiate on the basis of what the competitor did, not what we think he/she intended.)

Yeah I guess but they are already getting hit for one each because they didn't reload. So in that case it really doesn't matter if they GASA.

[Schutzenmeister]

Significant advantage is not an issue in this case.  10.2.8.1 specifically covers this situation and specifically states the penalty will be applied per shot fired.  There is no need to even question the degree of advantage gained.

[teros135]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yeah I guess but they are already getting hit for one each because they didn't reload. So in that case it really doesn't matter if they GASA.

I think OP said there was a reload on both strings, but it does seem to be a 10.2.8.1 situation.

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, terrydoc said:

How about ignoring whether it's a legal stage or not and answer the question about procedurals? How else do people learn?

what's important to learn is that if you *really* screw up, but you know the rules, you might be able to get out of it by getting the stage tossed.

[Schutzenmeister]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

what's important to learn is that if you *really* screw up, but you know the rules, you might be able to get out of it by getting the stage tossed.

 

As a matter of personal integrity, I would prefer to challenge the stage BEFORE I shot it ...