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XDM 5.25" TiteGroup or N320 .40 load info for new reloader?


R1_Demon

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Hey all...

 

New reloader here and I'm hoping to get some advice and info from you seasoned veterans. :)  I would like to shoot .40 Major Power Factor in the Limited Division when I start out.  I got a really good deal on an SA XD(M) 5.25" Competition in .40 S&W, so I'm going to be using that.  Nothing special done to the firearm.  I will be running it as it came from the factory, with the factory 5.25" match barrel.  

 

Ok, I bought 500 once fired Federal brass (already cleaned and ready to go), 1000 Winchester Small Pistol primers, a pound of TiteGroup and 500 Hornady 180gr XTPHP bullets.  I probably wouldn't have gone with that bullet choice after reading all of the info here first, but I purchased all of this at the same time I bought my reloading equipment (from the same place/site), so that is why I went with it, so that is what I have to reload for now.  I will change to another type of bullet after I have loaded these 500 rounds.

 

So, my question is, has anyone done any loading data with the above (or very similar) items for the XDM 5.25" in .40 for Major in Limited?  Any suggestions, hints, ideas?

 

I know from other threads here that TG runs hot and since summer is right around the corner, I may be trying to find some VV N320 locally.  If I can find it and someone has run the same setup above but with N320, I would also love to hear that loading data as well because I may be using that for future use. :) 

 

I do prefer 180gr .40 bullets as I have always carried, qualified and used them for duty ammo, plus it is my understanding that using the heavier bullet with the faster burning powder (TG or N320) will produce a softer recoil for Major. :)   So, I figure that is the way to go and makes sense.

 

I also looked up the info on the Hodgdon website for TG and it gave me the following loading data info for Hornady 180gr XTP HP bullets, but I'm curious to hear from others that have run TG on an XDM 5.25" on what their loading data is/was.

 

TiteGroup (Case: Hornady  Twist 1:16"  Primer: Winchester SP  Barrel Length: 4"  Trim Length: .845")

Stating Load:  Gr 4.2   Vel 877 fps    Pressure 26,500 psi

Max load:       Gr 4.7    Vel 978 fps   Pressure 33,300 psi

Bullet Dia:  .400"

COL:  1.125"  (I read that factory .40 S&W OAL is 1.120")

 

Now my barrel is 5.25" and the above info says 4" barrel, so I don't know if that would affect the COL info, amount of grains and/or pressure or not on the loads for my XDM.  That is why I am asking.  Again, better to be safe than sorry and thus the reason for this post. :)

 

I checked the VV website for load data on the N320 and it had no load data for HP bullets (not for N320, it did for N340).  Soooo, I wouldn't even know where to start.  However, here is their info for N320 on Fiocchi 180gr LTC (Lead Truncated Cone?) bullets:

 

N320 (Case: Remington  Twist: 1:16"  Primer: Small Pistol   Test barrel: 5.5"  Trim Length .843")

Starting Load:  Gr 3.5   Vel 883 fps  Pressure  Not Listed

Max Load:       Gr 4.1   Vel 968 fps   Pressure  Not Listed

Bullet Dia:  Not Listed

COL:  1.126"

 

So, I don't know how different of the loading data would be from the LTC bullets to the HP bullets for the N320.  -_-

 

Again, any info on either of these loads would be truly appreciated as I'm trying to stick to either of these loads for this particular firearm for the time being.  I'm not planning on loading anything until I get the info sorted out first. :)  Plus, is there a better or certain OAL (Is that the same as COL above?) that I should run in the XDM 5.25" and how would that adjust/deviate the load data above?

 

Thanks again for all the great info from everyone!

Mat

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Regarding the XTP vs. LTC bullets, generally speaking jacketed bullets will require more  powder to achieve the same velocity as a lead bullet. 

 

The Max load published by VV, seems a bit low at 4.1gr.  However work your load up and see what's needed for your gun.  Using Bayou or BBI 180gr coated bullets I need closer to 4.5gr of N320 to make PF out of my G35 w/KKM barrel; granted I load a tad longer than 1.126".

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Thanks for the reply, Muncie.  Question, do you just load at 1.126" after testing it out in your firearm?  Do most people try and load as long as "they can get away with" in their particular firearm after doing testing?  I'm just curious as to how people come up with their specific OAL's.  I know I read on another thread about the plunk and spin tests and such in regards to OAL's.  So, I'm wondering if people just load as long of an OAL as they can get away with or is there a general OAL to try and get to as long as it functions in your firearm?

 

All I do know is that you shouldn't go shorter on the OAL than recommended because it increases pressure, so I'm guessing a longer OAL lowers the pressure, correct?

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@R1_Demon the 'optimum' OAL depends on the firearm and components used. I ensure my rounds pass the plunk/spin test and work up the powder charge in my loads to hit PF plus a bit of safety margin.  Keep in mind, that this sport is not a 'bull's eye' competition.

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I've found that coated 180gr TC bullets from Acme, Bayou or Eggleston will plunk test in the 5.25" XDm barrel just fine up to at least 1.168" (longest I can recall loading them), but the factory magazines won't take longer than about 1.125"-1.130". Even at those lengths, the bullets can rub against the front of the magazine.

I usually load my 5.25" XDm ammo at 1.120"-1.123". Never had a problem loading at that COAL.

YMMV [emoji1]

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Thanks Muncie and N3WWN.  I'll look into it and see what goes.

 

Last night I pulled out a box of Federal Champion ammo.  Nothing fancy, just 180gr .40 TC rounds that I had to use at the range and thought I would use my new digital caliper to check their OAL to see what those were set to.  Wholly crap...they were all over the place.  I just picked them randomly out of the 50 round box and I know standard .40 is 1.120" and some were 1.125", some were like 1.131", some were 1.121".  They seemed to be all over the place.  I understand they are mass produced and all, but I was kind of shocked at how "all over" the numbers were and I made sure I was checking them in the same spot on the round and the same spot on the caliper.  Just surprised me is all.  I even kept checking to ensure the zero was correct on the caliper to make sure it wasn't messed up or something.

 

Then I checked my 165gr .40 Hornady FTX Critical Defense HP factory rounds and they were all pretty much right on at about 1.122" - 1.123".

 

Any which way, I'm planning on starting my loads on the "starting" grid and I'll try loading the OAL at the measurement that Hornady has listed online for their bullets and the TG powder.  Maybe I'll try a couple of thousandths longer than that for safety and then take like 10 of them to the range and see what they do.  However, I have to get a darn chrono first otherwise I'll have no darn clue what PF they are hitting, so testing them will be pointless except for making sure there is no over pressure situation or anything like that.

 

The bad thing is, I don't have much room at my house at all for reloading.  No additional room or anything. :(  So, I'm trying to think of how/what I can attach my reloader to.  I don't really have anything I can permanently attach it to (where I can drill holes through and bolt it down), so I was thinking maybe I can use two strong C clamps to screw it down to something each time I use it. :)  I know, sounds stupid, but I'm hoping that will work.  Problem is, I don't know what I can screw it down to yet.  I have a deck railing outside, but I really don't want to be out in the wind and sun and crap (let alone the slots in the deck if I drop a case or something).  Then I also have a normal 6 foot plastic table, but I don't know if that will be okay or not or hold the weight.  So, I'm still trying to figure this out.  That's why I haven't reloaded anything yet.  :-/ 

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Only loading 10 rounds at a time, you may not find any magazine or feeding issues due to length.

The minimum I use is 2 magazines worth for quick live fire function checking and at least 100-200 rounds at a practice before being somewhat confident that they will cycle.

10 rounds isn't bad for working up a load when you're chrono'ing, if you're testing a bunch of loads and just want to get in the ballpark.

I purchased a bunch of C clamps from Harbor Freight; some normal, some deep throat. All of my reloading equipment (presses and powder measures) is bolted onto 3/4" MDF blocks which I clamp onto my work surface, where ever that may be at the time.

As long as the surface is solid and stable, you should be good to go. I've used solid wood dining tables, small 2x4 tables, and built a cheap but effective wall mounted table at my old house from 1/2" laminate countertop and 2x4 triangles bolted to exposed wall studs in my utility room.

You don't want the press to move around when you're using it. Not only can it lead to inconsistent pulls/charges/etc, if your powder scale is on the same surface, you could be changing its behavior, too, and never get the same reading twice. [emoji22]

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N3WWN - I appreciate the heads up.  I guess I misread some of the other info where people had said to just load 10 rounds or so.  They must have meant for testing loads and going from there.  I probably misread it.  It makes sense to run 100-200 through the firearm to be sure that it cycles properly and there are no issues.

 

Good points on not wanting the press to move.  I agree, I don't want it to move, so that is why I have a couple of very good C clamps I was going to use.  I'm now looking for a table/bench to get.  I found one online, but it is a metal one (with a metal top).  I don't know if I like that very much or if it will be an issue.  I was thinking more along the lines of wood considering I'm working with powder/primers/etc.  I don't think having that on metal would be good.   But then again, I could always cut and put a piece of 1/8" or 1/4" plywood over the metal top of the table.  The guy only wants $25 for the bench/table and it is decent size, so that is why I'm considering it.  I'll just have to see how solid it is.  As you said, I don't want it moving while I'm pulling the handle to the reloader.

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* Make sure everything is solidly secured.  Like other people mentioned, if there's any movement to the press, it can throw your measurements off (OAL, powder, etc.).

 

* I have the same gun as you (only with a few aftermarket goodies).  I've only used WST for powder.  I load 4.3 gr of WST with a 200 gr RNFP plated bullet from Xtreme.  1.135" OAL.  The factory mags that I have will all accept 1.140" OAL, as will my barrel, but I dropped back to 1.135" in case I get an occasional round that measures longer (for whatever reason).

 

* the "load 10 at a time" is a good place to start for both developing new loads as well as just getting started.  I'm also new to reloading, so when I make some sort of change to my press (like tearing it apart for cleaning) I like to load a few, then check OAL, plunk test, crimp, etc. to help make sure I don't wind up with a whole batch of ammo that's jacked up.  I'll even work in small batches (10 or so) when I first start out during a loading session, just in case the press got bumped or something.  Again -- trying to avoid a bunch of rounds that don't work.

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Thanks dsu96.  I appreciate the info and heads up. :)  I'm waiting for the bench to come in to mount my reloader to.  Then we can go from there and see how it goes.  I'm definitely going to do the 10 at a time thing until I make sure that everything is good to go and I'm on the right track.  I don't want to have to take apart 100 rounds or something stupid like that.  LOL 

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We're talking about slightly different things here, but they aren't mutually exclusive.

Work up a few rounds, verify your reloading process, make sure those few cycle the gun and that there are no high pressure signs.

Then, after those checks, you will likely need to load up quite a few more to verify reliability. Running a very small sample through the gun and calling it reliable is not something I'd recommend.

Load development can be like scientific research; a small sample of negative results can prove a theory false, but it takes many, many positive results before there is confidence that the theory is true.

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15 hours ago, N3WWN said:

<snip>

Then, after those checks, you will likely need to load up quite a few more to verify reliability. Running a very small sample through the gun and calling it reliable is not something I'd recommend.


<snip>

 

Makes absolute sense. :) I would fully agree with you as well.  I also appreciate you pointing that out to make sure. :)  Never hurts to be sure of that.  I just don't want to make a ton of loads and then find out they are all f'ed up or something.  LOL  But once I make a few that seem to cycle find and are in the PF that I want and appear to be accurate, then I'll make a big batch of them and put them downrange to ensure that they are truly okay and they work in ALL the mags I have (not just one) and every one works fine and what the ultimate accuracy is for the round that I designed.  After all, if it isn't exactly what I wanted, what's more fun that designing another round and shooting some more, right? ;) 

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LOL...ya, I can be a bit "slow" sometimes. :P  LOL!  I truly appreciate all of the help and patience.  I really do.  And believe me, I am taking notes of all this. :) 

 

Now I just have to get around the stigma that my Hornady Lock-N-Load AP loader is a complete piece of crap. :( Seems like every post I see is that if you don't have a Dillon, you don't have anything.  Unfortunately I couldn't afford one and this was the best I could do for now.  I haven't even taken it out of the box yet because I've been waiting for my table to arrive (today), so I haven't even touched anything yet.  Just trying to get all the info I can and get my ducks in a row before hand. :) 

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R1 - I have the same press and have had the same thoughts as you.  However, with a little patience, the LnL should serve you just fine.

 

Check out my thread here about the LnL AP ---> 

 

Then go on youtube and check out all of 76HighBoy's videos on the LnL AP...he has a ton of useful videos out there specifically for that press.

 

 

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dsu - I appreciate the link.  I actually stumbled onto your link the other night and looked into 76HighBoy's YouTube videos.  I've only been able to watch a couple thus far, but they seem very good.  I want to try and watch his entire "new reloaders" series he has done and he also has like 6 videos just on the LnL AP itself.  I saved both "playlists" and plan on going through them, but most are about 40 min each, so it is going to take a bit.  LOL!  But I do appreciate the info. :)  

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I don't think you'll have any long term issues with the Hornady AP.  I know at least one guy who has used his for probably 3 years (or longer) and I don't recall seeing him have any ammo issues at all... and we're surrounded by Dillon fans. :) 

 

Another guy I know just bought a used AP and didn't know if everything was included - Hornady customer service walked him through everything to ensure it was complete and functional.  I think they even sent him a couple of replacement parts for free to get him up and running, but don't quote me on that.

 

For reference, I started reloading on my father-in-law's RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press, bought my own Lee single stage press and now load most of my ammo on a Lee Classic Turret press.  The only difference in USPSA ammo that I see is the rate at which I can load;  about 100 rd/hr on the single stage presses and closer to 300 rd/hr on the turret press.

 

Just like my buddy with the AP, I don't recall having any ammo issues that were due to the press or reloading equipment.  

 

If you work up a load that both you and your gun like, your reloading equipment is capable of consistently making ammunition and your reloading process is consistent, ammo quality should not be what is holding you back. 

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I appreciate it, N3WWN. :)  It just makes me worry when you read all these posts and forums that basically say "Dillon is the ONLY way to go" and that basically everything else is crap.  :wacko:  Even one post I did (not here) that I mentioned that I got the Hornady LnL AP and the first thing someone said is "You'll be sorry".  I asked them if they have one or ever had one and their answer was no.  The only reason they said that is just because I dind't buy a Dillon.  It is kind of like the "Glock" thing to me.  Where you get a ton of people that say if you don't own a Glock, whatever else you own is crap.  Well, being a professional, certified firearms instructor, I don't believe in that statement.  But I won't get into that.

 

Anyway, so now it is like I'm paranoid about not getting the Dillon and that I'll be sorry later for getting the Hornady.  I have a friend on the west coast that said he might sell me his Dillon cheap because he doesn't use it and doesn't shoot competitively any longer, so I figured what the heck and asked him what type he has and how much.  All I know at this point is it is an XL650 with the case feeder and I guess he has a bunch of setups for different calibers.  I'm sure he is going to ask way more than I can afford (thus why I didn't buy a Dillon in the first place - Even the RL550C), but I thought I'd ask him anyway.  He said he is going to check everything out and then let me know the final price.

 

I haven't even taken my Hornady out of the box yet.  It may be possible to return it or try and sell it as new, so that is the only reason I'm considering this.  Then again, I've also thought (as you mentioned above basically), why am I waiting, just say screw it and stick with the Hornady, set it up and use the darn thing.  So, I don't know.  :-/  I just got my Frankford Arsenal reloading bench (it is a smaller foldable one) yesterday, so I finally have a bench to mount my press to.

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The Dillon 650 is going to be a bit spendy, especially if it comes with a case feeder, which by itself is a $200+.  I would not suggest mounting any progressive press to the FA folding bench.  I'll bet people have don it, but it looks to be geared towards small single stage presses. 

 

Whatever you decide, take the plunge and start making some ammo, you'll be glad you did.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Unfortunately I don't really have much choice at the moment due to very limited space. I mounted it and it is very solid. I am actually going to set up the dies today and make some rounds and see how it goes. I'm going to check each round to verify it is good to go and is in spec though. 

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Almost all reloading presses have a learning curve. The Hornady is a fine machine...if it wasn't,  they would no longer be selling them. I have never loaded on the LNL, but even the Dillon's have quirks...it just seems easier to work some of those quirks out on the Dillon.

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