DKnoch Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Ben Stoeger and his Co-hosts have said several times on his podcast, including this past one, to learn how to draw in a GM time, learn to reload in GM time, etc, etc. I'm a B class production shooter, but I've recently shot an 84% score on 06-03, as I'm decent at hosing and practiced the classifier in dryfire some leading up to the match. I can keep a draw to first shot in the low 1's repeatedly in live fire and had a couple sub second draws practicing recently. Anyway can someone provide me with some approximate baseline times? Also I can get pretty good times in dryfire on isolated skills, but trying to put it all together can prove challenging at times (I'm using Stoegers dryfire book). I've heard Refinement and Repetition is a good book for classifier skills.. Any help or tips would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tha1000 Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 Ben has a grid of what he considers to be "GM" times for various drills and/or manipulations at various distances in his "Skills & Drills" book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taadski Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Print a bunch of classifiers, use one of the classifier calculators, do the HF math and take a look at the numbers required to make the GM cusp. There's your barometer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Gee Whiz; you get to practice the classifier before the match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, pjb45 said: Gee Whiz; you get to practice the classifier before the match? I dryfire and live-fire practice classifiers all the time. seems pretty dumb not to do so, since they are the same skills you need to be successful at field courses, and you have a standard to strive for (the scores required to make the next classification, or the one above that.) It can be very motivating for practice, and it has helped my transitions and my speed on partials and steel quite a bit. If a match publishes the classifier they are going to use, I will try to set it up in dryfire, and figure out the time i need. If I see a major match has a bunch of weird start positions, I practice those too. Why wouldn't you? For the op, I think it is expected that at a b level, you won't be able to put all the skills together at the same time, but I like the idea of having a goal of GM level in individual small skills. Ben does have some recommendations for GM-level times. I'm surprised they aren't in the dryfire book you already have, but maybe it's an old one. Edited May 3, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 And those numbers change a tiny bit depending on your division. i've practiced classifiers. i've done the reverse math like taadski says. OP, how about this during your live fire, at 10 yards to an open target can you always get an A hit in a 1.00 second draw? Hands at side or surrender. In live fire again at 10 yards on an open target can you do a ten yard 4 Aces in 2.50 seconds, all A hits, every time. Think of dry fire as having a couple of objectives if you're thinking of increasing your current speed. 1. Learning to move at a speed you currently aren't. You're trying to reset what you're capable of, increasing your baseline/maximum. 2. Expose deficiencies. Everything is easy to do when you're doing it relaxed, even the easiest thing gets difficult when you're trying to do it as fast as humanly possible. Pay careful attention to what the frustration is when you're really pouring the speed on and making mistakes as that screw up is telling you what you're doing wrong. So heed the lesson and correct it. Understand the outcome you're trying to get and do the correct actions for that result. Don't let the quest for hero dry fire times ruin your grip or sight picture. Be honest with yourself. And yes, S.A.'s book Refinement and Repetition is good if you're looking to master classifiers and stand and shoot skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I think you (or Me) missed the point. Practicing classifiers is not the issue per se. Practicing classifier prior to shooting a match with that classifier is the issue. Just as shooting the classifier twice, once for the match and once for headquarters. I believe, USPSA does have a high hit factor problem. I pretty much agree that classifiers test the foundations of shooting; draw, reload, speed, and accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 On 5/3/2017 at 4:17 PM, pjb45 said: I think you (or Me) missed the point. Practicing classifiers is not the issue per se. Practicing classifier prior to shooting a match with that classifier is the issue. So you avoid practicing things you know you will have to do in a match? that seems counterproductive. If the classifiers are published, I will often set them up in dryfire, and if time allows in live fire as well. I also practice table starts and unloaded starts and so forth if I know I will see them in a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Few years ago, I knew there were going to be WHO shots at a match, so I practiced them, a LOT. Learned a LOT about shooting in general from it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmella Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 On 5/3/2017 at 6:17 PM, pjb45 said: I think you (or Me) missed the point. Practicing classifiers is not the issue per se. Practicing classifier prior to shooting a match with that classifier is the issue. Just as shooting the classifier twice, once for the match and once for headquarters. I believe, USPSA does have a high hit factor problem. I pretty much agree that classifiers test the foundations of shooting; draw, reload, speed, and accuracy. Youre the first person Ive ever heard say practicing a classifier is an issue. Reshooting it, I can see the issue but practicing the classifier stage prior to the match is perfectly acceptable imo. I'm with Moto, you practice what you would see at a match so you can do those things to the best of your ability at the match.... What youre saying is very counterproductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 The minute I stopped practicing classifiers in live/dry fire, I immediately saw massive improvements in classifier scores. I take the skills needed for the classifiers and work them into normal training. I never set up the exact thing and run it over and over again. I also recently started mimicking frenchies live fire training by setting up a single stage and running it 20-30 different ways (No 2 same ways, ever) within a session. This has helped out a lot with my consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Maximis228 said: The minute I stopped practicing classifiers in live/dry fire, I immediately saw massive improvements in classifier scores. I take the skills needed for the classifiers and work them into normal training. I never set up the exact thing and run it over and over again. that's a great observation. for sure, i think you can *easily* overdo it, but one of the things i like about a classifiers is there is a standard, so I know how where my skills need to be to reach the next level, then i work on those skills individually. it's not just shooting a classifier over and over. I typically shoot it once, note the times for transitions, splits, draw, reload, etc...., and try to work on those things for a bit, then put it back together and shoot it a couple more times before moving onto something else. Edited May 17, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 I guess you do not read or understand what you are reading very well. Gee Whiz; What does Practicing classifiers is not the issue per se. mean to you? Really! Where did this conclusion come from in the thread? So you avoid practicing things you know you will have to do in a match? That was never said much less implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, pjb45 said: I guess you do not read or understand what you are reading very well. Gee Whiz; What does Practicing classifiers is not the issue per se. mean to you? Really! Where did this conclusion come from in the thread? So you avoid practicing things you know you will have to do in a match? That was never said much less implied. I guess you do not write very well, and you are snarky. I don't really know what you are trying to say. Why don't you say in plain english what you actually mean instead of making cryptic and judgemental snarky comments. If a match has a classifier or any other stage published in advance, it is reasonable and sensible to practice those things. Edited May 18, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 I guess you do not write very well. This could be true but I have written professionally from RFP, Proposals, State Statutes, Policy and Procedure Manuals, published articles, etc. I didn't make anything cryptic. It is plain English. Yep, I can be snarky. I don't deny that part. Drawing conclusions that are the exact opposite of what was written does inspire being snarky. So you avoid practicing things you know you will have to do in a match? There is nothing I have written that would support this conclusion. It is a non-sequitur. Why would you practice a classifier before a match? To improve your results? It can be inferred, that your results would be less than optimal if you did not practice the classifier? A reasonable conclusion could be if a small sample of shooters did the exact same procedure, then there would be inflation in the hit factors for that classifier. This is actually true since there are high hit factor issues within the classification system for USPSA. This means that for shooters who play the game straight, their ability to promote or advance within the classification has been decrease because of hit factor inflation. So if you want, identify each statement you want in plain English and I will endeavor to expand the statement(s) to make the point clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 At dawn, tomorrow, the two of you will face off at 25 paces to determine who is inherently the recipient of the God Given Truth Award (GGTA) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 And, right after the GGTA is awarded, I will close and lock this thread if attitudes do not improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: And, right after the GGTA is awarded, I will close and lock this thread if attitudes do not improve. Cool! So you're saying its ok to face off at 25 paces over a silly forum argument between two guys, but can't post who wins? BOOO! I want to know who wins. (obligitory ) Edited May 18, 2017 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taadski Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Sarge said: I want to know who wins. (obligitory ) I suspect it'll be the guy polishing up the draw to the single A zone ahead of time! What, that's about a 4 HF stage give or take, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) On 5/18/2017 at 4:04 PM, pjb45 said: Why would you practice a classifier before a match? To improve your results? It can be inferred, that your results would be less than optimal if you did not practice the classifier? A reasonable conclusion could be if a small sample of shooters did the exact same procedure, then there would be inflation in the hit factors for that classifier. This is actually true since there are high hit factor issues within the classification system for USPSA. This means that for shooters who play the game straight, their ability to promote or advance within the classification has been decrease because of hit factor inflation. So if you want, identify each statement you want in plain English and I will endeavor to expand the statement(s) to make the point clearer. The message that is coming across is that you seem to think that practicing in order to get better and to achieve better scores is not 'playing the game straight'. that is absolutely befuddling to me. Perhaps you are thinking of someone showing up to the stage early and running through the classifier a few times before their scored run. That's the only thing I can think of that would cause such a bizarre misunderstanding. in my opinion, classifiers are just like stages, only with standards to gauge your improvement, so people that want to get better (i.e. not play the game straight) will practice classifier skills, and test them by running the actual classifiers in practice from time to time. If you can shoot a stage (any stage) well in a match because you practiced those skills, that is a good thing.... that is the goal of competition. Practicing a classifier is no different than practicing any other stage or skill you want to do well on. If you read the match book and see there is a WHO/SHO standards stage, is it cheating to practice WHO/SHO shooting at different distances? If you go to SS nats knowing there is a 50 yard standards stage, are you not a 'shooter who plays the game straight' if you set up some 50 yard targets? IMHO, if there are HHF issues with the classification system, that is more due to the hero-or-zero nature of the system, which encourages people chasing a classification bump to shoot over their heads, and hope they hook up. If not, the score will generally be below the threshold for it to be counted. It's certainly not due to people practicing to improve their skills. I generally shoot classifiers trying to do well in the match, and it is not at all unusual for me to have 75% classifier in SS, but still be in the top few shooters overall in the match on that stage, because so many of the better shooters are zeroing the hero-or-zero equation. Edited May 22, 2017 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 On 5/22/2017 at 1:02 PM, motosapiens said: I generally shoot classifiers trying to do well in the match, and it is not at all unusual for me to have 75% classifier in SS, but still be in the top few shooters overall in the match on that stage, because so many of the better shooters are zeroing the hero-or-zero equation. Really interesting observation. I've recently noticed something similar having done it both ways - If I'm out there to try and win the match, my classification is usually almost a full classification below my classification level (negative 7-10%), despite still being one of the better scores for the match, and putting me in a position to usually finish the match in a winning or "top few" position. If I approach it as shooting a classifier in a vacuum, I'll either 0 it (or otherwise tank the thing), or I'll hit somewhere around 5-10% above my current classification. I think this is because of the concept of practice/drill speed vs match speed; that being that in practice, and subsequently on a classifier, it's more likely to push to an absolute limit and go for broke in order to get a classification bump. Ultimately, I end up balancing myself out and sitting at what I feel like is a pretty realistic representation of my skill level in the mid 80s across various divisions. With respect to the OPs comment about a chart or a table, I'd suggest doing some simple searches on youtube as well...there's some good stuff of guys like Taran, Vogel, or Jerry running drills on the clock and reading back their shot timers for splits, draws, reloads, etc. I know that's not a super easy answer, but you should be able to get a good flavor of everything you're looking for at the highest level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastluck13 Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I don't have a problem with people knowing the classifier ahead of time and practicing it. I don't have a problem with reshoots on a classifier. The thing is, a classifier that has an element of surprise truly tests your baseline capability. If you practice a specific classifier before shooting it, you will probably shoot above your baseline. Why is all of this important? Because you will shoot below your classification in a match where the stages and scenarios are not rehearsed. People are welcome to classify ahead of their abilities if they want but they are not going to win until their baseline catches up with their classification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sstephns Posted May 27, 2017 Share Posted May 27, 2017 11 hours ago, fastluck13 said: I don't have a problem with people knowing the classifier ahead of time and practicing it. I don't have a problem with reshoots on a classifier. The thing is, a classifier that has an element of surprise truly tests your baseline capability. If you practice a specific classifier before shooting it, you will probably shoot above your baseline. Why is all of this important? Because you will shoot below your classification in a match where the stages and scenarios are not rehearsed. People are welcome to classify ahead of their abilities if they want but they are not going to win until their baseline catches up with their classification. This is probably the smartest post in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 On 5/26/2017 at 9:01 AM, fastluck13 said: Why is all of this important? Because you will shoot below your classification in a match where the stages and scenarios are not rehearsed. so you're saying if you don't practice the sort of stuff you see in matches, you won't do as well in matches? that's some profound stuff right there. I think I will go practice some more. IMHO, practicing raises your baseline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKnoch Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Thanks for the tips, sorry I didn't respond to the thread prior. Practicing classifier skills absolutely translates into better shooting field courses. My clean classifier runs, where I don't have a miss on a tight partial, is going up into the 80's. Brings me to my next problem- learning how to shoot tight partials at speed in a classifier. I've been told to still shoot them aggressively on a classifier. Any tips on making a head shot reliably without slowing down? Or do I just need to practice going from a full target to a tight shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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