Stock II shooting factory ammo

[Weeman]

Hey folks, I have a new Stock II waiting for me when I go home on leave here in a couple weeks, and had a couple Q's about how you guys would prefer to mod the gun while still being able to light factory ammo reliably. Current situation is pretty much a no-go for reloading, so I'm gonna be shooting matches with off-the-shelf stuff for the foreseeable future. 

 

I bought the gun from BSPS, with their "competition" kit, shown here http://benstoegerproshop.com/eaa-tanfoglio-witness-upgrade-kit-springs-guide-rod-firing-pin-sight/

Planning on installing that once I actually get the gun in hand. Concerning the reliability issues I've heard about here, do you think it would be a good idea to run the gun stock for a few hundred rounds or more just to diagnose anything?

 

I should say I'm not too worried about having the coolest fastest lightest trigger on the planet, something in the ballpark of 8#/4# would make me happy. Is that an attainable goal to meet and still maintain reliability? Is that possible w/o the other mods I see happening to most of the guns on the board (BOLO, hammer/sear), i.e. just springs?

 

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but my searches through here didn't really touch on these specific questions.

 

Thanks,

Kenny

[IronArcher]

IF you are tempted to use Blazer Brass, or Winchester White Box, be sure to install the extra power extractor spring.
Other than that, I am a fan of the Aguila 124.
Perfecta from Walmart is pretty cheap (If you don't mind spending a little more, they also have Federal for a little over $11 a box.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[emjei]

Not to disapoint but.....the Firing Pin that comes with that kit is not the best ..... the OEM will do better.

Some members hate Freedom Munitions but I kinda like them since the Power Factor they give are perfect for our guns (132PF)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[johnbu]

Read all the threads on polishing, watch MemphisMechanic videos on polishing and assembly. Heck, read my thread on tips snd tricks too.

 

Ditch the henning firing pin, wolff hammer spring, firing pin return spring. 

 

  Buy Patriot Defense firing pin, 15.5# and 14# hammer spring, firing pin return spring, sear spring and trigger return spring. The 15.5# will light off blazer and wwb ammo.  After polishing, running a few hundred (3-500) rounds and a second polishing ... the 14# should be 100% . It might be 100% after 1 round of polishing, but I wouldn't guarantee it for a match.

 

The wolff 13# is marginal to unsatisfactory with factory ammo especially in a fresh gun. (Read ... expect "click-no-bang" at the worst time).  It pretty much requires reloading and several rounds of polishing.o

 

If you want to keep the henning firing pin, you will need the 15.5# PD, wolff 16 or EG medium. Any lower than those is asking for frequent fail to fire problems. That firing pin is the ONLY henning product I recommend against when using springs weaker than EG medium.

 

 

 

 

Oh...welcome to the world of Italian guns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by johnbu

[Weeman]

Awesome. I'm glad this is an attainable thing. 

 

Since it sounds like I'm going to be shopping regardless, would it be a better idea to just buy all the hard parts (sear/trigger, disco) most guys buy for these guns along with the springs you mentioned, or would springs by themselves be a reasonable decision? (i.e. would I be able to run those and only those for a good amount of time without having to buy anything else?)

 

From watching the polishing videos you mentioned, I saw MemphisMechanic is also running a heavy hammer spring, but is pulling about 6# in DA.... Is the hammer spring not as heavily correlated to pull weight as I thought? Is it possible to roll with a 15+# hammer spring and attain those numbers with a polish?

 

It sounds like I'm going to be running the gun stock for a week or so once I get back anyway as PD's website is down for a bit, so that should spotlight anything horrific.

Is there another site that carries all the parts you just mentioned? BSPS doesn't quite have everything, and I'm not sure where else to look.

 

I know this will be a lot of writing, but can you explain a little further what each of the aftermarket springs you mentioned do over the stock ones in rock-eater terminology? or maybe direct me to another thread that does? Not doubting what you are saying, just would like a little more understanding of whats going on.

 

Thanks,

Kenny

 

 

[johnbu]

HI Kenny, "rock eater"? You a jar head?

Lol, I'll try my best.

 

The trigger return spring does just that. It pulls the trigger forward after you pull it back.  the PD one has less force by about 1/2 pound. The PD sear spring is also weaker so it takes less force to move the trigger. They both work to reduce felt trigger force, but have no reduction of the strike power delivered by the hammer.

 

The firing pin return spring is a thief ! It directly steals strike force  from the hammer, reducing the ignition energy from the primer. Making it weaker. Increases the force to ignite the primer  (good thing). Or... you can reduce the hammer spring and reduce the DA trigger pull with the same ignition power delivered to the primer (even better!).

But... too weak and the pin can go so far forward it sticks in the breach face if dry fired. (Bad). The PD spring is truely optimized as it is weaker than the factory spring,  but desiged such the pin can't stick forward. 

 

Your goals are crazy simple to reach. 8/4 is easy. You can get there by polishing and the EG medium. But.... it will have a fair bit of stacking. The PD 15.5# gives almost the same power to the primer, but nearly no stacking. No need for the other bits. You may get them later to really improve the gun to max potential,  but your stated goals do NOT require it.

 

MM's gun at 6# da with the medium is the result of polishing, polishing polishing.  but, it still stacks! 

 

I would recommend you just get the PD optimised springs, their firing pin (to ensure ignition) and polish the gun at least 3 times. Live fire about 500 rounds between each polishing. Honestly,  polish it as soon as possible. Factory trigger is horrid. Optimised trigger is wonderous.

 

 

[Weeman]

9 hours ago, johnbu said:

HI Kenny, "rock eater"? You a jar head?

 

Haha you guessed it. I guess I'm in the minority when I want to know how the things that go bang work in my career field.

 

Seriously, thanks. That post made it clear as day for me, now all I've got to wait on is patriot defense to get their site back up and running.

 

Two weeks to go before I actually pick the gun up! It's killing me to wait like this. I'll post any more questions I have if I think of them.

 

Thanks again,

Kenny 

[MacLethal]

Yeah, a good polish, recoil spring and some Patriot Defense optimized springs will get you a ton better than stock and stay reliable. I would say the 15.5lb hammer spring should be reliable as well. Sear spring, trigger return spring, firing pin spring, and firing pin will be a big difference. Also check the chamber on it with several different brands to see how they all drop in. Barrel ream would be the only other easy thing to get done.

[johnbu]

Kenny, hardest part  is the start.  Go to it, Teufelshunde!

[YVK]

Henning pin, Wolff 14 lbs spring and whatever FP pin Bodkin put in my guns ignite factory Am Eagle and Speer CCI ammo, as well as Atlanta Arms stuff, just fine as long as I replace the mainspring every 10K. Changing to PD firing pin made no difference in anything for me.

 

[YVK]

I have to walk that back. Had several light strikes with Fed factory ammo today. Going to try a PD setup, although seeing their firing pin break today didn't inspire confidence.

[wav3rhythm]

I sent two of mine to Jim Bodkin for his trigger job. I switched to factory ammo for a while because I couldn't bring my reloading stuff with me with my latest move - I swung by his place and he fixed me up on the spot with something that lit off factory primers. If he's already worked on your gun, I'd recommend giving him a call and seeing what he says.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[YVK]

I might. It is more of nuisance annoyance than anything else. I shot a bunch of matches and A1 with his setup, worked fine as long as a hammer spring was replaced regularly. I don't mind futzing with it myself a little when it involves something as easy as switching a firing pin and spring. I tried a PD pin alone in the past for tougher primers, didn't seem to matter. Maybe the sauce is in the fp spring. Jim's good dude, he always has been responsive to my calls.

[SoCalShooter69]

1 hour ago, YVK said:

I have to walk that back. Had several light strikes with Fed factory ammo today. Going to try a PD setup, although seeing their firing pin break today didn't inspire confidence.

 

Take a pic of the underside of your sear cage.

[Weeman]

Update to the original thread.

 

I finally got the gun on Monday, but had to wait for the weekend to actually shoot the damn thing.

In the meantime, I polished the guts of the gun twice, and hand lapped the slide with polishing compound as well. 

Things I ended up adding before firing (following the advice of johnbu):

 

-Henning Contour grips

-Henning FP and Guide Rod

-PD reduced power sear and trigger return springs, firing pin spring, and 15.5lb hammer spring.

-Wolff extra power extractor spring

-Dawson .160x.100 FO front sight

-Springer Precision basepads

 

I will note that the combination of a badly tapped factory grip screw hole and an out of spec screw from Henning resulted in me having to hold off on installing the grips right away, but one call to their shop and I had a new set of screws for free, which was awesome. Thanks guys.

 

Shot a whopping 200 rounds of WWB but it'll have to do for now. As for function, the gun had issues with feeding the last two rounds of a mag simultaneously, causing a weird quasi-doublefeed. I'm pretty sure that can be fixed by chamfering the bottom edge of the breech face as stated in other threads.  Besides that, the gun was solid. Granted, I didn't really work the gun in DA a whole lot, but light strikes were not an issue. I don't have a personal pull gauge, but using the digital one at the range I went to I measured 8.5DA and 3.5SA. pretty darn close to my original goals, but I still think I can do better on the polish. I also want to try the 14lb PD hammer spring and see if that causes any major issues with factory stuff.

In dry fire practice I still find myself short stroking the trigger quite a bit and not allowing it to travel all the way to reset. Definitely is taking some getting used to. 

 

I will also note that my barrel fails the plunk test with all but the 115's I was shooting today, so I'm gonna have to deal with that eventually. Pictures and updates to follow. 

 

Thanks,

Kenny

[johnbu]

Kenny, sounds like your original goals are pretty close to being met.

 

One area to concentrate on polishing is the plunger (trigger bar lifter).  the hole in the head of the plunger is usually full of spiral grooves from rough machining. The rod part is easier to do and easier to fix but be sure to do both. The hole un the frame is usually nasty too.  when polished optimally, you can compress it and not feel any "zipper'.  the outside edges also need love. I also bevel the edges of the plunger head. Friction there can "hide", especially if the alignment of the trigger bar to plunger is off slightly.

I also polish the hammer spring, strut and its hole.

 

All of the above parts get mirror bright polished.  that should drop your trigger by a pound.  for reference, I'm at 5 1/2 da with PD hammer spring.  but don't obsess on the weight, go by the feel. Should be smooth as glass until hammer fall. Heavy but smooth will feel better than light and rough. More importantly,  a smooth predictable trigger is easier to shoot accurately.

[bulm540]

6 hours ago, johnbu said:

Kenny, sounds like your original goals are pretty close to being met.

 

One area to concentrate on polishing is the plunger (trigger bar lifter).  the hole in the head of the plunger is usually full of spiral grooves from rough machining. The rod part is easier to do and easier to fix but be sure to do both. The hole un the frame is usually nasty too.  when polished optimally, you can compress it and not feel any "zipper'.  the outside edges also need love. I also bevel the edges of the plunger head. Friction there can "hide", especially if the alignment of the trigger bar to plunger is off slightly.

I also polish the hammer spring, strut and its hole.

 

All of the above parts get mirror bright polished.  that should drop your trigger by a pound.  for reference, I'm at 5 1/2 da with PD hammer spring.  but don't obsess on the weight, go by the feel. Should be smooth as glass until hammer fall. Heavy but smooth will feel better than light and rough. More importantly,  a smooth predictable trigger is easier to shoot accurately.

   I need to repolished mine on my 2nd stock 2 .  I can definitely feel the zipper sensation when compressing the plunger. The  Plunger hole looks good but the rod has a lot of spiral grooves. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by bulm540

[YVK]

12 hours ago, SoCalShooter69 said:

 

Take a pic of the underside of your sear cage.

 

Sure, will do when I get around to take it apart. What specifically am I looking for?

[rjennings10]

my current setup has had zero issues with factory and reloaded ammo. 

light polishing

Henning gen 4 firing pin

factory recoil spring (12lb felt to light)

13lb PD hammer spring

henning guide rod

Xtreme firing pin spring light

[IronArcher]

FWIW, Walmart now has replaced Perfecta with Federal at the same price!!!!!

 

Side note:

My Lim Pro is just as happy running the Henning pin as the PD pin. This is with the Stock heart shaped hammer. I am confident with the Titan, the PD is THE way to go.

 

With the Xtreme medium spring, my gun has been 100% even with Perfecta.

With WWB and Blazer brass the extra strength extractor spring was a must. With it, again 100%.

 

Even with that heavy hammer spring I'm around #6 DA and 2-2.5 SA.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Weeman]

Sorry for the long absence. I finally got the chance to shoot my first match with the gun yesterday, and I guess it reaffirmed just how much I love this thing. 

 

Since last time, I was able to polish and chamfer the edge of the breech face, as well as polish the middle portion of the bottom of the slide which eliminated the previous issue of the gun picking up the last two rounds in a mag simultaneously. I also installed the 14lb PD hammer spring to try out and see if it created any issues that weren't present with the 15.5. There wasn't, so I kept it, and have gotten about 500 rounds of assorted factory stuff down the tube with that spring with no issues to speak of. I still haven't gotten around to sending the barrel off to get the chamber reamed, but I haven't had any problems so far, especially only running 115's. Maybe that'll happen later, but its not a pressing issue as of now.

 

Haven't gauged pull weight with the new spring, but I would guess it's a ballpark 7/3. Still a small amount of "zipper" in DA, but that's my own fault. Still haven't gotten the chance to polish everything as it should be, especially the plunger.

 

At this point I'm good with the pull weights as they sit, at least until I get more rounds through the gun. Had a borderline ND at the match yesterday where I touched off a round in SA (into a no-shoot nonetheless... d'oh!) as I was extending my arms forward to engage a target. No more weight changes until i figure out just how much prep is too much for this setup. 

 

Here's what she looks like now. Henning grips plus Springer basepads make for a pretty nice combo.

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Weeman

[johnbu]

LOL.  popped one off "prepping" the trigger. Yeah...  Did that when I had the PD 10# hammer spring and a 15 OZ sa trigger. It was a little "twitchy", so to speak.  On mine it was during a Virginia count classifier getting ready to shoot weak hand only.  

 

Sounds like you are pretty happy with the set up as it is.  Time to just run rounds. After summer or at your next detail strip polish the parts showing rubs and hit the plunger again.  Enjoy!

[Nathanb]

Mine was the first mag change of a six stage all classifier match. Right over the berm. So I'd have taken the no shoot

[johnbu]

Ouch.  over the berm. 

[Nathanb]

Yep. It was bad. First time ever having that happen