Sight Pictures with Loaded Gun?

[RickT]

I know the rules don't explicitly prohibit doing so with a loaded handgun (centerfire in my case).  Loading the gun prior has been my practice at the 50 or so matches I've attended.  Today I encountered an RO who said loading prior was absolutely prohibited.  Can someone point me to an "official" ruling regarding this practice?  Certainly I could live with sighting in unloaded, but no one likes to come up to the line and change his practice at the moment.  I'm fairly certain at the last WSSC I loaded prior.

[scottlep]

Taking a loaded sight picture is 100% legal in official SCSA matches. Outlaw matches may be a different set of rules. Once you are told to make ready you can handle a loaded gun which includes taking a loaded sight picture on the first string or every string if you want. I frequently take sight picture before a subsequent string to get myself realligned if I have a miss during one of my strings.

 

As I have commented in other SCSA rules threads, ROs not knowing the rules and making things up as they see fit is one of the biggest problems right now with SCSA.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I load, check, make sure the safety is on, and slowly an deliberately

place the gun, securely, in the holster ...

 

Not sure why I'd want to take a sight picture once the gun is loaded ????

[jkrispies]

3 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

I load, check, make sure the safety is on, and slowly an deliberately

place the gun, securely, in the holster ...

 

Not sure why I'd want to take a sight picture once the gun is loaded ????

 

I oftentimes take a sight picture before strings to ensure that my body is properly indexed.  The gun might be unloaded prior to the first string, but it would be loaded for every subsequent string thereafter.  The only mid-string exception, would be if I have to go downrange to verify a hit or miss and have to clear the gun to walk downrange.  

 

I think it would be a safe guess that most top end steel shooter do the same thing... and it's so commonplace, most folks don't even realize it's happening.

Edited April 16, 2017 by jkrispies

[hornetx40]

Yup perfectly legal, Like Scott said It is a big problem with RO's making up rules. The best way is to know the rules yourself so you can enlighten those that don't know. Another issue is shooters saying "ah It's only a local match it doesn't matter."  It does matter. play by the rules so its fair to all. 

If during your make -ready you happen to fire the loaded gun...You get DQ'd  So it would be advisable to change your make ready regimen. Unless you are shooting a gun that can be cocked without racking the slide. I know a shooter that during his make ready he takes an unloaded run through, then loads a mag and cocks the hammer and takes at least one more run through then loads a round in the chamber...perfectly safe and he gets the feel of the loaded gun.   Just another way to do it.

[RickT]

I load the gun (1911), but don't chamber a round "just in case".  In practice I might cock the hammer, but I'm mainly wanting to sight in with the start weight.  The only issue with ROs who don't know the rules and interpretation thereof is that you can't prove a negative.  The rules don't list everything you can't do so pointing to the "Make Ready" paragraph doesn't prove it's legal to sight in with a loaded handgun.  I've had this happen twice, both time with ROs that were primarily USPSA shooters.  Next time I'm going to press on and let them get the MD.  I stick a copy of the rules in my range bag and perhaps I can get an official-looking email from someone with a USPSA domain.

 

 

[Dr. Phil]

Seems like all of the discussion, arguing, looking up rules, etc might take one out of their "zone" a lot more quickly than not getting a loaded sight picture? I don't even care for the RO doing the little things like "hands a little higher" or "you can't step on the shooting box" etc. Let them shoot...

 

And maybe the few and far between "poor" ROs can be brought up to speed? Most are great. But a bad one at a match can sure screw up weeks and weeks of work to get there.

[Thomas H]

21 hours ago, RickT said:

 I've had this happen twice, both time with ROs that were primarily USPSA shooters. 

 

Odd, considering it is legal in USPSA also.

[RickT]

In one case the RO said I couldn't touch the gun once loaded and holstered; I assumed this was a USPSA rule.

[Thomas H]

12 minutes ago, RickT said:

In one case the RO said I couldn't touch the gun once loaded and holstered; I assumed this was a USPSA rule.

 

Nope.  If you have not finished making ready, you can pretty much do whatever you like as long as you stay in the start position, don't break the 180, don't sweep yourself, and don't actually fire a round.  You can holster and draw without issue.  (Most people don't, but you certainly can.)

 

Just like Steel Challenge.

 

It IS too bad when ROs don't know the rules, and make up stuff.  We are still better than a lot of sports, but it is certainly true that it still happens.

[RickT]

To add "insult" to a non-injury one of the shooters was starting with his hands at his armpits.  No one said anything.  I didn't care one wit, but it's not a good habit if upi

good habit if you're really going to shoot SC.  His draw was quick, however.

Edited April 17, 2017 by RickT

[zzt]

RT, then the correct response would be another make ready command.  If he still does not assume the correct position, say flat out- hands above shoulders.  If he refuses to comply, there are remedies.  I'd start him and give him procedurals.  Let him squawk to the CRO or RM.  I have no problem correcting a not-quite-right start position, and I have zero problems with a shooter who asks is this right.

[RickT]

58 minutes ago, zzt said:

RT, then the correct response would be another make ready command.  If he still does not assume the correct position, say flat out- hands above shoulders.  If he refuses to comply, there are remedies.  I'd start him and give him procedurals.  Let him squawk to the CRO or RM.  I have no problem correcting a not-quite-right start position, and I have zero problems with a shooter who asks is this right.

That's what the RO should do, but when you have experienced shooters, perhaps USPSA RO's, who don't know the SC rules you get what you get at the club level.  I'm not a member of the particular club with the ill-informed RO(s), but I'm sure we're all looking forward to USPSA rolling out SC-specific RO credentials.  

[hornetx40]

5 hours ago, RickT said:

That's what the RO should do, but when you have experienced shooters, perhaps USPSA RO's, who don't know the SC rules you get what you get at the club level.  I'm not a member of the particular club with the ill-informed RO(s), but I'm sure we're all looking forward to USPSA rolling out SC-specific RO credentials.  

 

Totally agree. SCSA needs to have RO Classes. It would help a lot. Our rules are much simpler than USPSA and the courses could be one day.

Rick If it doesn't say something is not legal in the rules then it is legal.  Ask the RO exactly where it says that in the rules. If he can't show a rule supporting what he says there is no violation.

[zzt]

I keep a four sheet (double sided) printout of USPSA Chapter 10 rules with me.  The headers for each rule are in bold text.  I do this for two reasons.  One, It is printed large enough for me to read without having to put my bifocals on.  Two, I have trouble remembering the rule numbers, and the descriptions on the Nooks, etc. do not always match.  Failure to Engage is one that comes to mind.  It doesn't say that in the list of procedurals, and I won't remember 10.2.7 without looking it up.  You could do something similar for SCSA.

 

SCSA rules differ so little from USPSA that you could make a cheat sheet to hand out to the ROs before the match.  Example:  for holstered rimfire pistols only- USPSA "hammer down" procedure specifically does not apply.  It is permissible to manually drop the hammer to avoid a "dry fire" before holstering.

[Thomas H]

14 hours ago, RickT said:

That's what the RO should do, but when you have experienced shooters, perhaps USPSA RO's, who don't know the SC rules you get what you get at the club level.  I'm not a member of the particular club with the ill-informed RO(s), but I'm sure we're all looking forward to USPSA rolling out SC-specific RO credentials.  

 

This is actually interesting to me, because in general, the USPSA-certified ROs I've dealt with know the SC rules a LOT better than the other people I've dealt with.  Apparently this differs by region.  :/

 

What interests me is that some of the things people are saying here that ROs have had issues with are legal in USPSA also---so a certified RO shouldn't be having those issues at all.  (And the wrists-above-shoulders thing--that is a standard start position in USPSA.  What certified RO doesn't know that?)

I wonder how many of the ROs are actually certified, and how many are just "local ROs" because they are used to running a timer.  There really is a difference.

 

Most certified ROs I know actually make sure they know the rule before they make the call. 

 

I agree that having a short add-on for SC rules would probably be handy.  But truthfully, it really shouldn't take more than an hour or so.  Heck, a decent online video with a handout and a test would be sufficient for people who are already certified USPSA ROs.

[zzt]

TH, in local Level 1 matches there doesn't have to be a certified RO.  I guess it has to be that way, because there may be a dearth of ROs in some areas.  I'm fortunate in that the clubs I shoot at have a LOT of certified ROs.  In fact, one club hosted a NROI RO course and paid for each attendee, just so there would always be enough.  That way everyone could sign up for the squad they wanted to shoot on and they wouldn't have to shuffle people around to make sure there was a real RO on each squad.  Now we laugh and ask if there is anyone on the squad who ISN'T an RO.  Even at other shoots there are always at least two certified ROs on each squad, and usually three or four.  We share the duties and it makes life easier..

Edited April 18, 2017 by zzt

[Thomas H]

20 hours ago, zzt said:

TH, in local Level 1 matches there doesn't have to be a certified RO. 

Oh, I know.  The comment I was responding to, however, said "USPSA ROs" which is why I said it that way.

 

It is certainly true that in people who primarily shoot a different sport who aren't certified often don't really know the rules.

 

My response was merely to the comment that USPSA-certified ROs wouldn't know the rules....

[RickT]

In retrospect I should have worked this on the spot versus validating the RO's misconception.