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RIA Pro Ultra Match (wide body 1911) FTE


N3WWN

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So, I have a new Rock Island Armory Pro Ultra Match HC 40 which has occasional failure to extract issues.  When I say "occasional", I mean once every couple of magazines.

 

I have tuned the extractor several times, thinking it was just the hook slipping off the case... but even that didn't make much sense as the brass would fall out of the chamber as soon as I locked the slide back, removed the magazines and tilted the barrel up slightly.  That being the case, it should not have been stuck in the chamber enough for the extractor hook to slip.

 

Well, today I think I sort of figured out what is happening, but not quite what to do about it.

 

It seem to me that the round at the top of the magazine is preventing the chambered brass from fully extracting.  The chambered brass appears to be getting caught on the mount of the top round, stopping the reward motion of the ejecting brass, causing the extractor hook to slip off.

 

I had the forethought to actually take a few pictures while at the range.  The best two are attached.

 

My first thought is that the rounds are too short; they're 1.115" COAL which is perfect for my 5.25" XDm.  If they were a little longer, the nose of the bullet may prevent the round from coming up ever so slightly, allowing the chambered brass to eject without resistance... at least this is my thinking at this time.  I know I can load to 1.125" COAL for my XDm;  any longer and the bullets rub against the front of the magazine.

 

Having never seen this type of failure before, I'm not certain this is the cause and/or solution.

 

Anyone have this issue before?  If so, how did you resolve it?  I'd like to have one load for both the XDm and the RIAPUM, if possible.

 

Thanks!

 

-Rich

20170415_132330.jpg

20170415_132345.jpg

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As far as tuning the issue put by playing with OAL of your hand/re-loads I'm not an authority on that. However, from your picture I'm wondering if it's maybe the coated bullets themselves being a little "stickier". 

 

Have you had the same issues with fmj round or flat nose bullets? 

 

It could just be that that gun isn't too fond of coated bullets. Some guns will run them without issues and some have problems. 

 

Adam from Atlas Guns had a video talking about not liking coated bullets all that much outside of range practice because of their FTF issues.

Edited by KrymSIX
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As the extractor is pulling the fired case out of the chamber the timing rail is pressing down on the next round up in the magazine. I think you simply don't have enough extractor tension. Bend your extractor, there should be plenty of videos around to show how, put more tension on it and I bet your problem goes away.

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I had a similar thing with my RIA Pro Match .40 at first when I got it. for me it was I needed to go longer on the rounds... 1.180 to 1.200 depending on bullet type. In the end I had a few magazines that where out of spec. and replaced them and the gun ran and is running with no more extraction problems.

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I've only tried RNFP and TC bullet profiles, but I'm pretty sure this issue shows up with factory FMJ ammo, too.

I loaded up some more rounds last night at 1.168" (backed the seating stem out 1 full turn) and they look like they'll work well in the mag (though definitely too long for my XDm mags). If they don't FTE, I'll see if I can find a COAL that works in the mags for both guns.

I'm not having any Fail to Feed issues, just these FTExtract ones.

I'll look at another extractor (and ejector). Anyone know how to tell if the extractor tube/tunnel is "standard" vs "Para"? I've been considering an Aftec, but they are stated to not work in Para slides.

The same is probably true of any extractor. I'm gonna check out the Wilson ones, too, as I've been considering their sear and/or disconnector as upgrades.

Ross Carter, you're right, the stripper rail would be keeping the top round down and out of the way, so perhaps I need to tune my extractor more. After I tuned it, it does now hold a loaded round when the slide or rotated and shaken, so not sure how much more tuning would be necessary. Time for more research :)

I haven't confirmed it, but I think this is happening with all 4 factory mags and I know it was happening when the mags were stock *and* now that they have Dawson extended base pads and Arredondo springs+followers.

The FTE happens at various points in the magazine, so magazine spring tension is not likely the issue (springs are new and strong; tension is tight regardless of the number of rounds in the mag).

TL;DR? Gonna look at extractor replacement if I can figure out how to tell which extractor tube/tunnel I have. That and loading longer. :)

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update...

 

Since I was looking at a new extractor, I figured I'd play with the one that came with the pistol.

 

After applying what I thought was a LOT more tension to the extractor, my issues seem to have been resolved.

 

The next day, I went to the range for just a couple of minutes and ran 2 mags of 1.168" and 2 mags of 1.115" rounds through the gun without any problems at all.

 

I shot a match over the weekend and didn't have any problems with the gun at all, except that the reduced power mag release spring I put in led to 2 prematurely dropped mags, costing me more time than I'd like to admit on those stages.  I shot both 1.168" rounds (to get it used up) and 1.115" rounds (my XDm ammo) and it liked both and there was no difference in accuracy or POI as far as I could tell.

 

The "once every couple of mags" FTExtract issue did not happen at all in the 133 round (minimum) match.  I probably shot 140-150 rounds total.

 

I now know more about extractor tuning... that I don't know jack about extractor tuning! :)

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Good to hear you fixed it.

 

I have the 51782 (widebody .40, with the rail) that I bought used, and it runs really well. I will say though, the extractor tension on this is a lot higher than any other 1911 I've personally detail stripped (which isn't a ton, maybe 5?)

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3 hours ago, thormx538 said:

I will say though, the extractor tension on this is a lot higher than any other 1911 I've personally detail stripped (which isn't a ton, maybe 5?)

 

Yeah, it seems to me that this is accurate :)

 

One additional note from over the weekend, after putting about 300-400 rounds downrange at a practice session, I think the 1.115" COAL may be slightly too short with a 14 lb recoil spring.  I had a couple of times, when loading the first round into the chamber, the slide would hang up just slightly and needed a little love to snap all the way forward into battery.  I didn't have this with the 1.168" COAL rounds or with the 16 lb recoil spring.

 

I dropped the recoil spring weight down from the factory 16 lb to 14 lb after watching some video from the match I mentioned earlier and saw the muzzle dipping.  I thought it may be oversprung, swapped in the 14 lb spring and no more muzzle dip!  

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I had FTF problems on mine.

Do yourself a favor and replace the extractor and the ejector. The factory parts are cheap cast steel.

The slides have a standard hole for the series 70 extractor.

I also have a Para p-18 that has the oversize extractor hole. Oh I forgot to mention they suck!

I used sti specs for tuning the feed lips on my mags. 

My Mec-gar mags took the most work.

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Find out if it only happens when the mag is full or almost full.

I have a 9mm Colt that I took to the range with the factory mags and a couple Wilson Combat ETS mags for the first test and ran several types of FMJ, and 3 or 4 different types of full power JHP "carry" type ammo for several mags worth, with absolutely no problems. Then I took it to shoot at my first USPSA match and it had nothing but problems. Blamed it on ammo I hadn't shot before, worked on extractor, ejector, etc. Found out that when the pistol was fully loaded with a round in the chamber and 10 rounds in the mag the first round or two would have trouble extracting. Apparently on my first trips testing the gun and mags I would load the full mags in, shoot the pistol dry, reload and repeat. Worked great like that. Going up to start a stage at a match I'd load the chamber and then top the mag off to 10, reinsert, and it would jam the gun. Found out as long as there were only 9 in the mags they run 100%. With 10 in the mag they push up hard enough on the slide it would slow the cycling down enough that the first round would not eject reliably. Most jams looked just like yours with the empty lying on top the loaded mag or even almost like a stuck case where it didn't retract much from the chamber at all. If it's really hard to load the last round or two in the mags there could be enough pressure on the slide to slow it enough to show these symptoms. I'm hoping with enough break in the ETS mags will work with the full 10 round load. If not they are 9 rounders just like the stock Colt mags. 

Edited by pkrhed
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12 hours ago, je85 said:

 

I had FTF problems on mine.

Do yourself a favor and replace the extractor and the ejector. The factory parts are cheap cast steel.

The slides have a standard hole for the series 70 extractor.

I also have a Para p-18 that has the oversize extractor hole. Oh I forgot to mention they suck!

I used sti specs for tuning the feed lips on my mags. 

My Mec-gar mags took the most work.

 

Thanks for the tips!  

 

I haven't been entirely happy with the ejection pattern, which is somewhat sporadic, but didn't know if it was the extractor or the ejector.  I 'spose replacing both will resolve the problem :)  

 

I read that the Wilson Combat parts are high quality and priced well, so I may go that route.

 

The STI specs will help me make sure my mags are all good.   I think the Mec-Gar mags are the "Made in Italy" ones, right?  If so, that's all I have, so I may be in for some work.

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11 hours ago, pkrhed said:

Find out if it only happens when the mag is full or almost full.

<snip>Found out that when the pistol was fully loaded with a round in the chamber and 10 rounds in the mag the first round or two would have trouble extracting. Apparently on my first trips testing the gun and mags I would load the full mags in, shoot the pistol dry, reload and repeat. Worked great like that. Going up to start a stage at a match I'd load the chamber and then top the mag off to 10, reinsert, and it would jam the gun. Found out as long as there were only 9 in the mags they run 100%. With 10 in the mag they push up hard enough on the slide it would slow the cycling down enough that the first round would not eject reliably.

 

The FTExtract issue seems to be resolved at this point.  Hundreds of rounds and many mag changes (both full and partially filled mags) and no more FTExtract.

 

The FTFeed (not quite in battery - needing a love tap) definitely is with the first round out of a full mag.  I don't recall it happening with partial mags, so it may be a combo of new mag springs pushing the top round against the stripper bar on the bottom of the slide enough to slow the slide down + hand cycling.

 

No issues noticed after getting the slide into battery.  I take out the charging mag (which is now -1 round from full) and insert a full (20rd) mag and we're off to the races. :) 

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Atlas gun works has a great video on you tube for tuning sti mags.

I was also having problems with the slide not going fully into battery on the first few rounds with 19-20 in the mag all because of the mag feed lips.

I used a reverse snap ring pliers to open up the front feed lips.

Take your time with it. My Mec-Gar mags are tuned to .366-.368 for the rear and .371-.372 for the front.

OEM mag is tuned to .346-.347 rear and .355-.356 front

Lightly Stone and polish the bottom of the feed lips.

Note that Mec-gar mags have longer feed lips than the original mag.

Mec-gar mags say MG p16 .40 and the original mag says 40 SW made in italy

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Any issues shoving 20 into the mags? I use MG Para mags with the Arredondo springs/followers and Dawson toolless pads and I had all sorts of issues this weekend when I loaded to 20. Followers getting stuck and mags turning into shakers, etc. I stuck to 18rd in each after that as a precaution.

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What ever you get for parts just make sure that they are hardened barstock. Case hardened is useless. EGW makes great long lasting parts.

I have also had good luck with Dawson parts too.

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17 minutes ago, je85 said:

Atlas gun works has a great video on you tube for tuning sti mags.

I was also having problems with the slide not going fully into battery on the first few rounds with 19-20 in the mag all because of the mag feed lips.

I used a reverse snap ring pliers to open up the front feed lips.

Take your time with it. My Mec-Gar mags are tuned to .366-.368 for the rear and .371-.372 for the front.

OEM mag is tuned to .346-.347 rear and .355-.356 front

Lightly Stone and polish the bottom of the feed lips.

Note that Mec-gar mags have longer feed lips than the original mag.

Mec-gar mags say MG p16 .40 and the original mag says 40 SW made in italy

 

I measured the mags during lunch.... they are OEM and already shorter than the STI mags (1.35x front to back - outside measurement), and the feed lips are as you stated, about 0.346" rear and about 0.356" front.  

 

Because of the large difference (0.010"), I didn't touch them.  What issues could I see if they're left the OEM mags with the 0.346/0.356" lip dimensions?  Trying to determine if I should tune or leave as is for now.

 

Thanks!

Edited by N3WWN
typo
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The Mec-gar mags are slightly shorter. I can get 19 in reliably for reloads and 20 on the oem mag.

When you load the Mec-gar mags tap the back and bottom every 5 rounds to take care of the shaker problem.

The spring catches in the space between the dawson base and mag.

I'm using modified Mec-gar followers and trimmed wolf xtra power springs.

 

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8 minutes ago, thormx538 said:

Any issues shoving 20 into the mags? I use MG Para mags with the Arredondo springs/followers and Dawson toolless pads and I had all sorts of issues this weekend when I loaded to 20. Followers getting stuck and mags turning into shakers, etc. I stuck to 18rd in each after that as a precaution.

 

My mags with Arredondo springs+followers and Dawson toolless basepads turned into salt shakers, too, until I used the Arredondo insert.   Loading to 18 was my solution, too, while waiting for the inserts to arrive.

 

With the inserts, I didn't have quite the capacity I wanted (19 rounds barely reloadable), so I bought extra springs and followers to play with.  Found that the follower wasn't the limiting factor... the totally compressed spring was.  So, I took 2 coils off the spring to allow 20 rounds reloadable (21 rounds with a lot of force and definitely not reloadable).

 

I only did this to 2 mags, in case it turns out to be a bad idea mid-match somewhere.   ;)   I'll keep the spare, uncut springs in my range bag for just such an occasion.

 

Make sure to put the insert in the correct way!  I didn't see any markings to show which way it goes, but if you can only get 16-17 rounds in the mag with the insert (Dawson toolless basepads & Arredondo springs+followers), you probably have the insert in backwards!  Don't ask how I know this or how many hours it took me to figure it out.  :blink:

 

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You may want to try and reduce your front feed lip to .354 on one mag.

Your rounds may have to much angle and causing your FTE pressure problems.

It helps a lot if you polish the bottom of the feed lips.

 

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3 minutes ago, je85 said:

You may want to try and reduce your front feed lip to .354 on one mag.

Your rounds may have to much angle and causing your FTE pressure problems.

It helps a lot if you polish the bottom of the feed lips.

 

 

Gotcha!

 

Is there a chance of the top round shifting forward (partial inertial feeding?) if the lips are polished?  I have some 1911 single stack mags which won't drop free because the top round will slide far enough forward that the nose of the bullet contacts the frame/ramp.  This only happens when the mag has at least 4 rounds in it, perhaps due to more spring pressure.  They don't do a full inertial feed/double-feed, just won't drop free.

 

I'm not experiencing this with these mags at this time, but don't want to induce such an issue, either ;) 

 

Oh, thanks for the hardened barstock recommendation, too!

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Run your finger nail or a knife across the bottom of your feed lips to feel for burrs or roughness. All my mags had at least a burr or was rough so much so that they would scratch the brass. I guess if your concerned about polishing just use a stone or 200-300 grit sandpaper.

Some 1200 grit sandpaper would leave you with a smooth but not polished surface.

 

I have not had problems with the round sliding forward enough to cause the mag to drop free.

 

Edited by je85
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33 minutes ago, N3WWN said:

 

My mags with Arredondo springs+followers and Dawson toolless basepads turned into salt shakers, too, until I used the Arredondo insert.   Loading to 18 was my solution, too, while waiting for the inserts to arrive.

 

With the inserts, I didn't have quite the capacity I wanted (19 rounds barely reloadable), so I bought extra springs and followers to play with.  Found that the follower wasn't the limiting factor... the totally compressed spring was.  So, I took 2 coils off the spring to allow 20 rounds reloadable (21 rounds with a lot of force and definitely not reloadable).

 

I only did this to 2 mags, in case it turns out to be a bad idea mid-match somewhere.   ;)   I'll keep the spare, uncut springs in my range bag for just such an occasion.

 

Make sure to put the insert in the correct way!  I didn't see any markings to show which way it goes, but if you can only get 16-17 rounds in the mag with the insert (Dawson toolless basepads & Arredondo springs+followers), you probably have the insert in backwards!  Don't ask how I know this or how many hours it took me to figure it out.  :blink:

 

Thanks for the info -- which Arredondo inserts did you use? I'm only seeing them offered in 9/38 and 45 on the website (https://www.arredondoaccessories.com/collections/inserts/products/magazine-inserts?variant=30586014541)

 

EDIT nevermind, I now see that they are labeled as P16 & 38 super:lol:

Edited by thormx538
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48 minutes ago, je85 said:

Run your finger nail or a knife across the bottom of your feed lips to feel for burrs or roughness. All my mags had at least a burr or was rough so much so that they would scratch the brass. I guess if your concerned about polishing just use a stone or 200-300 grit sandpaper.

Some 1200 grit sandpaper would leave you with a smooth but not polished surface.

 

I have not had problems with the round sliding forward enough to cause the mag to drop free.

 

 

I'll give that a try!

 

Thanks! :) 

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44 minutes ago, thormx538 said:

Thanks for the info -- which Arredondo inserts did you use? I'm only seeing them offered in 9/38 and 45 on the website (https://www.arredondoaccessories.com/collections/inserts/products/magazine-inserts?variant=30586014541)

 

EDIT nevermind, I now see that they are labeled as P16 & 38 super:lol:

 

I see that you figured it out!  Good deal! 

 

I had a hell of a time... Arredondo's site says "Para P-16 & .38 Super", Dawson's site says "STI/Para 9mm and .38 Super" and Shooter's Connection says "Para 38/40".

 

The first ones I bought were from Shooter's Connection, so I bought the others from them as well, knowing that I'd get what I intended to order.   

 

You want the ones that look like this:

501-006__87747.1430919569.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

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