jeffroberdo

Vectan Prima V?

29 posts in this topic

I am hearing a lot about Prima V Pistol Powder.

Where can i find reliable 9mm Load Data and,

Does anyone know where it falls on the Relative Burn Rate Chart?

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Posted (edited)

The latest batch seems to be right with N320 or a tick slower judging from the powder charge vs velocities I see. The newer Prima V is not as clean burning as the older stuff I had but it is still just as soft shooting.

Edited by bowenbuilt

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Posted (edited)

It's dirty like titegroup, but very very to clean unlike the baked on carbon titegroup leaves.

 

Burns cool, meters well through Dillons, and feeling/non-smoky like N320.

 

What projectile type/weight and gun(s) are you shooting it through?

Edited by MemphisMechanic

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

It's dirty like titegroup, but very very to clean unlike the baked on carbon titegroup leaves.

 

Burns cool, meters well through Dillons, and feeling/non-smoky like N320.

 

What projectile type/weight and gun(s) are you shooting it through?

I don't think it's as dirty as TG. 

 

To me it's as dirty as N320. Which isn't dirty. I mean they're all dirty but to me TG is nasty. 

 

To my hands it feels softer than N320. 

 

I'e got the slower batch 16055 and I'm getting 890 FPS (10 shot average) with a 147 gr Xtreme @ 1.135" out of my CZ shadows. 

Edited by B_RAD

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I find prima v to be really clean in 9mm and 40. I've used about 10 lbs of it in the last year and a half, but maybe I have the 'old batch'.

 

Not sure what the op means by 'reliable load data'. If you need lawyers to tell you what to do, you will probably be better served with a different brand of powder, but if you aren't scared of experimenting with reasonable caution and thought, you will find prima v to be very comparable to n320 or even more so red dot in terms of load data. I get just about identical velocity from the same weight of prima v as from red dot, so if I need to guesstimate at a new load, I just look up the specs for red dot and start there.

 

Using coated bullets i make low-mid 130 pf with 3.1 grains under a 147, or 3.8 gr under a 125 gr boolit at fairly standard-ish oals like 1.15

 

fwiw, i see absolutely no signs of any pressure issues, so if you like the feel of faster powders, it may be worth trying some of the faster vectan powders like AS or prima sv as well.

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It meters well, is clean, shoots soft but the newer batch stuff is horrible in the accuracy department and when it comes down to it that is the most important aspect of any load. With the older stuff I was getting a 2" group at 20yrds and now I am getting a 8" group with this load

135gr TC blue bullet

3.5gr prima V

1.135 OAL 

135PF

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I shot a couple 8 shot groups out of my g-34 yesterday at twenty five yards propped with a laser using bayou 124 tc bullets with 3.8 grs at 1.070 oal. One group was 2.1"& the other was 2.7". Cases comes out of gun a lot cleaner then TG and the gun runs cooler then TG.

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57 minutes ago, Superpipe9 said:

It meters well, is clean, shoots soft but the newer batch stuff is horrible in the accuracy department and when it comes down to it that is the most important aspect of any load. With the older stuff I was getting a 2" group at 20yrds and now I am getting a 8" group with this load

135gr TC blue bullet

3.5gr prima V

1.135 OAL 

135PF

I've seen you say this before. Can't remember what batch you had. 

 

It sucks it's not working out for you!  

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Dwbsig said:

I shot a couple 8 shot groups out of my g-34 yesterday at twenty five yards propped with a laser using bayou 124 tc bullets with 3.8 grs at 1.070 oal. One group was 2.1"& the other was 2.7". Cases comes out of gun a lot cleaner then TG and the gun runs cooler then TG.

What batch is your powder?

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53 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

What batch is your powder?

16055

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50 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

What batch is your powder?

PB15110. I can't figure it out. I'm curious why everyone puts their load out there but no one gives a example of the accuracy they are getting from their loads. It is the most important thing of any load. I've tried a light crimp, heavy crimp, short, medium and long OAL and have done 130pf all the way up to 139pf. No luck with this crap. I'm open for suggestions. I got 18lbs of this firework making crap left. 

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1 hour ago, Superpipe9 said:

PB15110. I can't figure it out. I'm curious why everyone puts their load out there but no one gives a example of the accuracy they are getting from their loads. It is the most important thing of any load. I've tried a light crimp, heavy crimp, short, medium and long OAL and have done 130pf all the way up to 139pf. No luck with this crap. I'm open for suggestions. I got 18lbs of this firework making crap left. 

What's your laid data again?

 

I've shot some 3"-4" groups at 25 yds off hand. Even shot some 5" ish groups at 50 yds. 

 

 

And you're able to get acceptable accuracy out of different ammo in the same gun?  I know you said before you're using the same gun and all that's different is the powder batch. I wonder if somehow now the problem is the gun?  Lead/copper fouled barrel? 

 

I'm not an expert just spit balling. 

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Posted (edited)

Here is some test I ran yesterday using my STI DVC 9mm with 124 PD JHP and Bayou 124 TC with Prima V, Tightgroup, and BA9 1/2. Wasn't pleased with the BA9 1/2 load, will work the load up again and retest Monday. Will start above 4 grains. Prima V I liked but Tightgroup was more accurate. I"m going to test some new 120 GR Bayou TC bullets along with the proven 124 TC also.

Darrell's Load Data 041417.pdf

Edited by Darrell
Add gun used

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21 hours ago, Dwbsig said:

I shot a couple 8 shot groups out of my g-34 yesterday at twenty five yards propped with a laser using bayou 124 tc bullets with 3.8 grs at 1.070 oal. One group was 2.1"& the other was 2.7". Cases comes out of gun a lot cleaner then TG and the gun runs cooler then TG.

You chrono this load?

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1 hour ago, Darrell said:

Here is some test I ran yesterday with 124 PD JHP and Bayou 124 TC with Prima V, Tightgroup, and BA9 1/2. Wasn't pleased with the BA9 1/2 load, will work the load up again and retest Monday. Will start above 4 grains. Prima V I liked but Tightgroup was more accurate. I"m going to test some new 120 GR Bayou TC bullets along with the proven 124 TC also.

Darrell's Load Data 041417.pdf

What gun did you use? Some of the data doesn't look correct. You have a 124tc with 4gr of prima v shooting hotter than 4.2gr of prima v. Am I missing something?

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Superpipe9 said:

What gun did you use? Some of the data doesn't look correct. You have a 124tc with 4gr of prima v shooting hotter than 4.2gr of prima v. Am I missing something?

Was shot in an STI DVC 9mm thats why I'm going to do a retest, didn't like what I saw with just a 10 shot group. I will do a three 5 shot avg instead of one 10 shot group.

Edited by Darrell

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

You chrono this load?

I don't have any chrono data yet still tinkering with loads for accuracy. Been playing from 3.6-4.0 with a couple differs bullets when I find what I think is accurate I'll drag the chrono out just to lazy lol. I'll try to get it out this coming week.

Edited by Dwbsig

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On 4/14/2017 at 5:14 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

It's dirty like titegroup, but very very to clean unlike the baked on carbon titegroup leaves.

 

Burns cool, meters well through Dillons, and feeling/non-smoky like N320.

 

What projectile type/weight and gun(s) are you shooting it through?

Sorry for not getting back you guys till now.

 

My Main Shooter right now is my Glock 34 9mm with a Wilson Combat Match Barrel.

My Favorite Projectile right now is Blue Bullet 125gr RN.

My current go to load right now is 125gr BB RN over 4.1g of Win231 should crono around 1050ish. Shoots pretty soft and not bad accuracy but i know the accuracy can be better.

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Posted (edited)

On 4/14/2017 at 5:50 PM, motosapiens said:

I find prima v to be really clean in 9mm and 40. I've used about 10 lbs of it in the last year and a half, but maybe I have the 'old batch'.

 

Not sure what the op means by 'reliable load data'. If you need lawyers to tell you what to do, you will probably be better served with a different brand of powder, but if you aren't scared of experimenting with reasonable caution and thought, you will find prima v to be very comparable to n320 or even more so red dot in terms of load data. I get just about identical velocity from the same weight of prima v as from red dot, so if I need to guesstimate at a new load, I just look up the specs for red dot and start there.

 

Using coated bullets i make low-mid 130 pf with 3.1 grains under a 147, or 3.8 gr under a 125 gr boolit at fairly standard-ish oals like 1.15

 

fwiw, i see absolutely no signs of any pressure issues, so if you like the feel of faster powders, it may be worth trying some of the faster vectan powders like AS or prima sv as well.

By "Reliable Data" I mean something i can read and use from say "The Manufacturer" not something i have read on a forum or on the internet somewhere. I don't need a "Lawer" i just want good well tested data, not B.S.

Now after saying that, I indeed have found lots and lots of good load data starting points from folks in this forum and yes, i love to experiment when i can afford the time and ammo to test.

That is one of the reason i asked if anyone would know where Prima V falls in the burn rate chart.

 

 

Edited by jeffroberdo

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When the Nobel-Vectan powders started to become available the powder drought was still going, and lots of folks were looking for other powders to fill the gaps.    Several in my area started using GM3 so I got some and tried it.  There is no published data in English that I found, but did find some in Italian as it is a European powder and was made by SNIA.  

Prima SV, Prima V, and GM3 are all in the same powder family but have different burn rates.   Grafs gives a reference for the burn rates, but there is no other info from another source I have found that collaborates their burn rate info.

 

I worked up loads starting low and working up with a chrono.  After going through this process I have some nice minor load recipes for 9mm with bullets ranging from 115gr through 160 grain.    So, using powers like these requires some homework and willingness to be on the fringe of reloading as there is no published data for pistol from the mfg or in our standard reloading books that I know of.  One thing I have noticed is that the load data I've seen for GM3 vs Prima V are not far off....I'm getting 128 pf with 147gr bullets over 3.0gr of GM3 and people using Prima V are using about the same...and this is from several of my 9mm pistols so it just isn't a fast barrel.  So, don't take burn rates or "similar to" powders that Grafs provides as gospel.  They say GM3 is like AA#5 or Auto-Comp.  In my experience it is waaaaay faster.  In fact, I am using charge weights and getting similar velocities in the American Select or Solo1000 range.   Also, a buddy got some to try to make major in 9mm, and couldn't do it.

 

Lastly, there seems to be anecdotal info that  there is substantial lot to lot variation with these powders.  All of my GM3 is the same lot number, but have been reading about folks using old vs new lots of Prima V and having substantially different charge weight vs velocity differences. 

 

So, if you decide you like it I'd say get a bunch of the same lot number.   I like the power a lot.  It is very clean, I get  low SDs,  very good accuracy, it is cool burning, is easy to load as it meters well once settled, not pressure spiky, and is cheap....so IMO the juice is worth the squeeze to work with this powder.   

 

But, now that the powder drought is pretty much history there are lots of other powders available that have well established load data.  Hopefully, Lyman will pick up the ball and publish some pistol loads with the Vectan powders. 

 

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10 hours ago, Bamboo said:

When the Nobel-Vectan powders started to become available the powder drought was still going, and lots of folks were looking for other powders to fill the gaps.    Several in my area started using GM3 so I got some and tried it.  There is no published data in English that I found, but did find some in Italian as it is a European powder and was made by SNIA.  

Prima SV, Prima V, and GM3 are all in the same powder family but have different burn rates.   Grafs gives a reference for the burn rates, but there is no other info from another source I have found that collaborates their burn rate info.

 

I worked up loads starting low and working up with a chrono.  After going through this process I have some nice minor load recipes for 9mm with bullets ranging from 115gr through 160 grain.    So, using powers like these requires some homework and willingness to be on the fringe of reloading as there is no published data for pistol from the mfg or in our standard reloading books that I know of.  One thing I have noticed is that the load data I've seen for GM3 vs Prima V are not far off....I'm getting 128 pf with 147gr bullets over 3.0gr of GM3 and people using Prima V are using about the same...and this is from several of my 9mm pistols so it just isn't a fast barrel.  So, don't take burn rates or "similar to" powders that Grafs provides as gospel.  They say GM3 is like AA#5 or Auto-Comp.  In my experience it is waaaaay faster.  In fact, I am using charge weights and getting similar velocities in the American Select or Solo1000 range.   Also, a buddy got some to try to make major in 9mm, and couldn't do it.

 

Lastly, there seems to be anecdotal info that  there is substantial lot to lot variation with these powders.  All of my GM3 is the same lot number, but have been reading about folks using old vs new lots of Prima V and having substantially different charge weight vs velocity differences. 

 

So, if you decide you like it I'd say get a bunch of the same lot number.   I like the power a lot.  It is very clean, I get  low SDs,  very good accuracy, it is cool burning, is easy to load as it meters well once settled, not pressure spiky, and is cheap....so IMO the juice is worth the squeeze to work with this powder.   

 

But, now that the powder drought is pretty much history there are lots of other powders available that have well established load data.  Hopefully, Lyman will pick up the ball and publish some pistol loads with the Vectan powders. 

 

@Bamboo. Thank you for that very well composed and very informative reply. I love tinkering and don't mind at all being on the "Fringe" of reloading for my pistols. V sounds like a good powder and i did notice the inconsistencies that everyone is having and i agree that since the powder shortage is now all but over their are lots and lots of other powders out there that have very well established load data available. I indeed may be just chasing a rabbit down a rabbit hole and looking for the Holy Grail of accuracy with my Glock 34 and should just be happy with the accuracy i am getting but i KNOW this gun can do better in the accuracy department. 

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17 hours ago, jeffroberdo said:

By "Reliable Data" I mean something i can read and use from say "The Manufacturer" not something i have read on a forum or on the internet somewhere. I don't need a "Lawer" i just want good well tested data, not B.S.

 

 

there is imho reliable data on prima v, just not from the mfr. in my experience it falls in exactly the same place as red dot for both 9 and 40, very slightly faster than n320. I have tested it with 10k rounds or so in 9 and 2-3k in 40. I personally have no need for a reloading manual to bless what I and others already know about the powder, but I don't blame you for being cautious. If it makes you feel better, start low, and work up your own loads and carefully observe the results... or just use a more popular and better documented powder.

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9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

there is imho reliable data on prima v, just not from the mfr. in my experience it falls in exactly the same place as red dot for both 9 and 40, very slightly faster than n320.

 

I agree. On how it feels, and on it's "volume vs velocity" curve.

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I agree that the first batch of PV was closer to Red Dot but the brand new batch I just purchased is much slower. We all need to keep in mind that the data presented is in a singular gun just as factory pressure data is presented. Loading manual pressure and burn rate data will not be what we experience in our guns. Every gun is different in every case, what would show high pressure signs in one gun may be perfectly safe in another that is identical.  All printed data is just a starting point from which we experiment to find the optimum. The new Accurate Arms loading manual is a good example, I don't know what they are using to get their top load pressure readings but according the pressure gun BAE is using in their lab it is not even close, AA showing much higher pressures for the loads presented in several of the faster powders. I really wish PV would leave the formula alone, the first batch I purchased was nearly perfect for 9mm Production, why fix what isn't broken.

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54 minutes ago, bowenbuilt said:

I agree that the first batch of PV was closer to Red Dot but the brand new batch I just purchased is much slower. We all need to keep in mind that the data presented is in a singular gun just as factory pressure data is presented. Loading manual pressure and burn rate data will not be what we experience in our guns. Every gun is different in every case, what would show high pressure signs in one gun may be perfectly safe in another that is identical.  All printed data is just a starting point from which we experiment to find the optimum. The new Accurate Arms loading manual is a good example, I don't know what they are using to get their top load pressure readings but according the pressure gun BAE is using in their lab it is not even close, AA showing much higher pressures for the loads presented in several of the faster powders. I really wish PV would leave the formula alone, the first batch I purchased was nearly perfect for 9mm Production, why fix what isn't broken.

My guess would be they're trying to save some pennies. Whatever changes they're makIng probably don't have any effect on the shotgun loads the powder is for. They aren't even considering the effects on 9mm loadings.  

 

At least thats my guess. 

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