Xtreme Delta hammer IDPA SSP legal?

[1eyedfatman]

Is there anyway to call the Xtreme Delta hammer IDPA SSP legal?  Does anyone know if the Xtreme Delta comes stock on a Tanfoglio which is SSP legal or can be made SSP legal (example, lower the weight of a stock 3 to =< 43 ounces).  I figure the Xtreme Delta hammer has a better chance than the Xtreme Titan hammer.

 

Below are the IDPA SSP rules regarding triggers:

--------------------------------------------------------

8.2.1.2 SSP Permitted Modifications (Inclusive list): 

C. Magazine releases, slide stops, safety levers, de-cocking levers, hammers, and triggers, that are stock on one SSP

legal firearm may be used on another SSP legal firearm from the same manufacturer provided they are drop in replacements. Parts in this list must come factory installed on standard production firearms. Special parts that are available installed only from a factory custom shop are not eligible in SSP. 

 

8.2.1.3 SSP Excluded Modifications (Non-Inclusive list): 

B. Aftermarket or visibly modified magazine releases, slide stops, safety levers, de-cocking levers, and hammers. 

 

Also:

 

8.2.1 Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP)

Handguns permitted for use in SSP must:

A. Have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units. Discontinued models must have had a total production of 20,000 units

B. Be semi-automatic

C. Be double action, double action only, or striker fired

D. Use 9 mm (9x19) or larger cartridges.

E. Weigh 43.00 oz. or less unloaded, with the heaviest magazine inserted.

F. Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 3⁄4” x 6” x 1 5/8” with the largest magazine inserted. 

 

Below is the part info:

-------------------------

https://www.ericgrauffelonlineshop.com/en/frame-parts/217-tanfoglio-xtreme-hammer-delta.html

 

"The new Tanfoglio Xtreme Hammer has been worked in cooperation with Eric Grauffel to meet the requirement of shooters. The new internal shape design allows you to improve the single action, but also by repositionning hooks, and interruptor, the double action trigger pull weight has been dramatically reduced.

No matter what division you shoot, this new hammer is made for your Tanfoglio pistol.

We recommend you to install your new hammer with a new sear to avoid long time installation.

IPSC production legal

NB: Hammer package does not include interruptor, hammer strut and pins. Must be ordered separately"

[philippshen]

Not an expert, but IMO, the short answer is YES

 

8.2.1.2 Parts in this list must come factory installed on standard production firearms.

 

Delta hammer came installed on all Xtreme pistols.

 

8.2.1 subsection A. Have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units.

 

I bet they have, globally.

 

8.2.1 subsection E. 43oz limit.

 

Difficult, but not impossible. For example: remove grips, use polymer guide rod, remove the rear sight, remove right side safety, drill holes on your mag.... 

Edited April 14, 2017 by philippshen

[johnbu]

I don't recall any Extreme pistols being ssp legal. 

 

What am i forgetting?

[Jsuki]

so I ran mine with a titan hammer on my limited pro in idpa. I believe you can have an extreme hammer placed on any pistol from the tanfo factory.

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[Jsuki]

my limited pro made weight as long as no base pad. Double action and no bull barrel half length dust cover. With new idpa rule book you could theoretically run a full length in cocked and locked but the weight would be your biggest issue.

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[JusticeOfToren]

I don't recall any Extreme pistols being ssp legal. 
 
What am i forgetting?

With 2017 rules, stock 3 is SSP legal, given that you make weight which is doable. As such, Stock 3 extreme is SSP legal, and that comes with Titan hammer out if factory in 2017.

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[1eyedfatman]

So it seems to come down to this.  Can the stock 3 Xtreme be made SSP legal by reducing its weight because all other parameters with the pistol would pass?

 

According to the below site, the Stock 3 Xtreme weighs 2.85 lbs (or 45.6 ounces).  I take it hat is without the magazine (anybody know how much a mag would weigh with plastic basepad?).

https://eaacorp.com/index.php/guns/handguns/witness-stock-iii-xtreme-tanfoglio-19

 

Below are some of the features on the Stock 3 Xtreme.  Does anybody know how much could be saved in these areas including drilling some holes in the magazine and switching out the base pad for the plastic one?

 

- Ambidextrous Safety - switch to single side safety

- Xtreme Aluminum Grips - I read these add 2.82 ounces weight.  If replacing with Cooper grips (1 oz), then this would save 1.82 oz's?

- Xtreme Hammer (this looks like the Xtreme Delta and not the Xtreme Titan hammer)

- Xtreme Guide Rod - PD I heard is coming out with liter guide rod soon?

- Xtreme Firing Pin

- Xtreme Firing Pin Spring

- Xtreme Hammer Spring

- Fully Adjustable Supersight

- Xtreme Front Sight with Fiber Optics

- Custom Magazine Catch

[JusticeOfToren]

 

Lim Pro product information sheet says its weight is 42.3 oz (1200 grams).   http://www.tanfoglio.it/uploads/catalog/media/schedalimitedprojpg.jpg

Stock 3 Extreme product information sheet says its weight is 44.4 oz (1260 grams).   http://www.tanfoglio.it/pdf/catalogo.pdf

 

The weight difference between Lim Pro and the Stock 3 Extreme is 2.1 oz, according to the Tanfoglio catalogs above. 

 

My Lim Pro currently weighs 42 oz with empty mag inserted, all Extreme parts but with plastic grips and single-sided safety.  IDPA weight limit is 43 oz.

 

The question is whether I can shave off 1.1 oz more off my current Lim Pro, which I think the answer is yes.  I can easily shave off 2+ oz by going from Extreme guide rod to a plastic guide rod.

 

If I just apply what I did to my Lim Pro, plus a plastic guide rod, to Stock 3 Extreme, there you get an IDPA SSP legal Stock 3 Extreme.

[johnbu]

 ^^ hate to burst your bubble,  but....

 

They also list the stock 2 and stock 2 extreme at the same weight. Obviously,  adding 2 oz of grips and 1 oz of basepad will make the gun heavier. 

[JusticeOfToren]

8 hours ago, johnbu said:

 ^^ hate to burst your bubble,  but....

 

They also list the stock 2 and stock 2 extreme at the same weight. Obviously,  adding 2 oz of grips and 1 oz of basepad will make the gun heavier. 

 

I agree that the catalog may not show accurate/actual weights.  Unfortunately I don't have a Stock 3.  I just weighed my regular Stock 2 with plastic grips and empty mag inserted with factory plastic basepad.  It weighs 43.5oz.  How much heavier is a regular Stock 3 than a regular Stock 2?  I think the math still applies - the key is to use plastic grips, basepads and guide rod.   That combo should bring down 3-4 oz of weight easily.

[MemphisMechanic]

I need a good scale. I'm curious to see if I can get the Stock 3 under weight with a poly guide rod and lightweight grips.

 

(unless my scales grips turn out to be a lighter option, sand down the wood ones and add grip tape? What is the lightest grip out there? Copper's lava ones?)

 

I'd shoot it in ESP (due to my frame mods to the magwell) if so, perhaps twice a year when I feel like slumming in IDPA.

Edited April 15, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[MemphisMechanic]

$17 with Prime, arrives Monday. We'll see then.

 

Accuteck All-In-One Series W-8250-50BS  A-PT 50 Digital with AC Adapter (Silver) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SMHWZ42/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_qjJ8ybA84GYV2

[johnbu]

Hey, you have a digital trigger  guage,  right?

 

Duh. Hold it hook down,  zero. Slowly  put the gun on the guage by the trigger guard.

 

Works slick,  if you don't  bounce the weight.

[MemphisMechanic]

Damn! Duh...

[MemphisMechanic]

That's okay. I'm about to get back into the gym and get into shape, I needed it for batch-cooking healthy meals anyway.

[1eyedfatman]

6 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

$17 with Prime, arrives Monday. We'll see then.

 

Accuteck All-In-One Series W-8250-50BS  A-PT 50 Digital with AC Adapter (Silver) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SMHWZ42/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_qjJ8ybA84GYV2

 

If you could get your stock 3 down to =< 43 oz and post up here how you did it, I'd appreciate it.  Even if a Titan hammer may not be legal, I think the case needs to be made that the Delta hammer is.  Even if you are close, there may be other measures which could be taken to make it work like drill out the mag body some.  Also, do you have a Ambi or single sided safety?

[johnbu]

3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

That's okay. I'm about to get back into the gym and get into shape, I needed it for batch-cooking healthy meals anyway.

Batch cooking?

 

Your favorite gas station doesn't sell stale donuts and cold coffee?

 

[MemphisMechanic]

8 hours ago, 1eyedfatman said:

 

If you could get your stock 3 down to =< 43 oz and post up here how you did it, I'd appreciate it.  Even if a Titan hammer may not be legal, I think the case needs to be made that the Delta hammer is.  Even if you are close, there may be other measures which could be taken to make it work like drill out the mag body some.  Also, do you have a Ambi or single sided safety?

 

I'm a lefty, so I run an ambi because I like riding it. I'll take the right side off for "weight making" measures, and the grips too.

 

My plan is to weigh it with no grips or guide rod. Just a recoil spring on the scale with slide and frame. If it's still over weight, I believe we're gonna have a hard time making it legal.

[lksyotas]

I weighed my Stock 3 on a high end daily calibrated scale at my company and it came in at 46.02oz with empty stock magazine, and single sided safety.  It has the Titan hammer, Xtreme sear installed already. I drew up a polymer guide rod and plastic grips in CAD and based on their mass, the gun was still almost 1.5 oz heavy for the IDPA weight limit of 43oz. Shy of milling material out of the frame or inside of the slide I don't know how to get there. Wish it was possible but the Lim Pro might be the only realistic way to get there. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by lksyotas

[JusticeOfToren]

34 minutes ago, lksyotas said:

I weighed my Stock 3 on a high end daily calibrated scale at my company and it came in at 46.02oz with empty stock magazine, and single sided safety.  It has the Titan hammer, Xtreme sear installed already. I drew up a polymer guide rod and plastic grips in CAD and based on their mass, the gun was still almost 1.5 oz heavy for the IDPA weight limit of 43oz. Shy of milling material out of the frame or inside of the slide I don't know how to get there. Wish it was possible but the Lim Pro might be the only realistic way to get there. 

 

My Stock 2 weighs 43.5 oz with empty mag inserted.  It's surprising that Stock 3 is almost 3 oz heavier than Stock 2. 

[johnbu]

Not surprising at all. Longer slide. Longer dust cover.  longer barrel (even if thinner).  Thicker dust cover due to the mount.

 

1 hour ago, JusticeOfToren said:

 

My Stock 2 weighs 43.5 oz with empty mag inserted.  It's surprising that Stock 3 is almost 3 oz heavier than Stock 2. 

 

[1eyedfatman]

9 hours ago, lksyotas said:

I weighed my Stock 3 on a high end daily calibrated scale at my company and it came in at 46.02oz with empty stock magazine, and single sided safety.  It has the Titan hammer, Xtreme sear installed already. I drew up a polymer guide rod and plastic grips in CAD and based on their mass, the gun was still almost 1.5 oz heavy for the IDPA weight limit of 43oz. Shy of milling material out of the frame or inside of the slide I don't know how to get there. Wish it was possible but the Lim Pro might be the only realistic way to get there. 

 

Thanks for the info.  You came up 1.5 oz heavy.  Did you factor in the weight of the Titan hammer and if there is any savings going to the Delta or the heart shaped hammer that comes with the Lim Pro?  Also, I imagine one could drill holes into their mag bodies which are somewhat heavy?

[lksyotas]

1 hour ago, 1eyedfatman said:

 

Thanks for the info.  You came up 1.5 oz heavy.  Did you factor in the weight of the Titan hammer and if there is any savings going to the Delta or the heart shaped hammer that comes with the Lim Pro?  Also, I imagine one could drill holes into their mag bodies which are somewhat heavy?

I didn't weigh the factory hammer vs the Titan as the Titan was already installed when I used the scale.  I don't think drilling holes would be enough in the mag bodies as the wall thickness of the steel isn't enough to make much difference.  I was looking at having to mill a .5" x 2.25" x .25" slot into the frame to get the weight down below 43oz.  That slot would be way too much material to remove from the frame so I abandoned the idea...

 

As a side note - the Stock 3 weighed 43.52 oz on the same scale without the guide rod or grips installed.

[johnbu]

9mm mag tube  (only the tube) is 3.2 oz.

 

Polymer mags would get it down.  but i doubt a dimensionslly identical poly mag would be strong enough.

[ClintMorris]

Does anyone know the weight of the super sight vs a fixed sight?

I imagine you could save close to a half ounce there. Might suffer in the asthetics department but who cares, all that matters a making weight.