Sarge Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Meanwhile, while many are fixated on Production hammers, there is an important change to stage design and WSB's. https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Should save some words in the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 the bob krogh rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 We will now need tape measures in our range bag, if the wall is 68 7/8" or less, we can shoot over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, bret said: We will now need tape measures in our range bag, if the wall is 68 7/8" or less, we can shoot over it. that works for me. that is so low that the stage designer/builder is bound to notice it and address it in the wsb if required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 this seems silly to me to have to delineate this and seemingly every little thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) This seems like one of those things that should have been the rule from the start. 99.7% of the time, stage designers don't intend for walls to be shot over by the .0002% of USPSA shooters that are actually capable of doing so. So why not have the default as ground to infinity unless otherwise stipulated rather than the other way around. Edited April 13, 2017 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, d_striker said: 99.7% of the time, stage designers don't intend for walls to be shot over by the .0002% of USPSA shooters that are actually capable of doing so. So why not have the default as ground to infinity unless otherwise stipulated rather than the other way around. I think you should send that to Troy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seadog_99 Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 this seems silly to me to have to delineate this and seemingly every little thing.^^^This. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 3 hours ago, rowdyb said: this seems silly to me to have to delineate this and seemingly every little thing. I think most people would find it silly that one individual that is 6'6" can shoot over walls and eliminate other shooting positions such as going prone just because the WSB doesn't state "ground to infinity." It's much easier for a stage designer to specify that a wall goes from the "ground to height constructed" if they want to allow people to shoot over it rather than every WSB state "ground to infinity" to prevent a couple of tall people from being able to game a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted April 14, 2017 Share Posted April 14, 2017 6 hours ago, motosapiens said: the bob krogh rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 holy crap, what a bad rule change. I'll stop at the hardware store this week and add a tape measure to my range bag. Maybe EGW can sell an official measuring stick. What if both ends of the wall at the supports are 6' but it's 5'6" in the middle, or the wall is crooked and crosses the 5'9" line somewhere in the middle? Do I have to throw out a stage w/ a wall that starts at 5'10" but settles 2" into the mud, or gets a couple inches of stone tossed under? Can I get a stage tossed I don't like by stepping on the supports and sinking it into the mud? either as built, or to infinity... I don't care, but don't make me measure! And if you are going to make me measure, be clear about it. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frgood Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 So I guess I just add 'Rule 2.2.3.3 applies' to all the stage briefing templates. The designer can cross it out as needed. Or can I have it written at the bottom in very tiny print? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, frgood said: So I guess I just add 'Rule 2.2.3.3 applies' to all the stage briefing templates. The designer can cross it out as needed. Or can I have it written at the bottom in very tiny print? what does that accomplish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frgood Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 I'll admit I was being a bit snarky, It was a rough agreement of with d_strker, On 4/13/2017 at 7:31 PM, d_striker said: This seems like one of those things that should have been the rule from the start. 99.7% of the time, stage designers don't intend for walls to be shot over by the .0002% of USPSA shooters that are actually capable of doing so. So why not have the default as ground to infinity unless otherwise stipulated rather than the other way around. To quote: "Any barrier less than 6 feet tall (-3 inch variation) specified as extending to infinity must be clearly identified in the WSB and marked accordingly, " I am sure we can identify and list quite a few scenarios regarding the choice of '6 feet'. However, barring the bulld of any type of riser 6 feet seem a little high for the threshold. perhaps 4 or 5 feet would make more sense. as that allows shooting over walls by design and accommodates most heights. this threshold does favor a select few and so rings as an odd height threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, frgood said: I'll admit I was being a bit snarky, It was a rough agreement of with d_strker, To quote: "Any barrier less than 6 feet tall (-3 inch variation) specified as extending to infinity must be clearly identified in the WSB and marked accordingly, " I am sure we can identify and list quite a few scenarios regarding the choice of '6 feet'. However, barring the bulld of any type of riser 6 feet seem a little high for the threshold. perhaps 4 or 5 feet would make more sense. as that allows shooting over walls by design and accommodates most heights. this threshold does favor a select few and so rings as an odd height threshold. I'm guessing they chose 6' as most walls average 6'? I've never actually measured our walls but I would guess they are close to 6. I agree that 5' would probably have been a better number. No one would put in a 5' vision barrier meant to be shot over in a match as there are many competitors that simply wouldn't be physically able to shoot over it. I think NROI had to specify some height, though, as we wouldn't want a single barrel or other type of vision barrier for a lay down target to go to infinity. And we wouldn't want to list these types of vision barriers as going to height constructed in every WSB. To me it seems like they are killing two birds with one stone on the 6' requirement. It seems like it is meant to make all of the walls that most clubs use default to infinity. If they didn't specify a height, we would all have to specify all of the barriers we only wanted to go to height constructed in the WSB which would just create more brain damage than before. Edited April 17, 2017 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 Now to find a trail running shoe with a 4" lift!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, EngineerEli said: Now to find a trail running shoe with a 4" lift!!! Don't forget your tape measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuidad Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) Does this rule include barrel walls. What about a single barrel at the end of a wall of stacked barrels. I ask because last month when I was considering shooting over a stack of barrels, I asked about the legality of doing that. The MD said no and inserted the "infinity" clause into the WSB and removed the single barrel at the other end of the wall. BTW...a stack of 2 barrels is going to be very close to the 69" limit for this rule. Edited April 17, 2017 by nuidad Info about barrel height Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, nuidad said: Does this rule include barrel walls. What about a single barrel at the end of a wall of stacked barrels. I ask because last month when I was considering shooting over a stack of barrels, I asked about the legality of doing that. The MD said no and inserted the "infinity" clause into the WSB and removed the single barrel at the other end of the wall. BTW...a stack of 2 barrels is going to be very close to the 69" limit for this rule. I misread that at first. So you're talking about a single barrel at the end of a bunch of double stacked barrels. That's a good question. IMO, even if the barrel is part of a "wall" of double stacked barrels, that portion of the "wall" is not 6' so I would say shooting over it is legal. Just my opinion though. 2.2.3.3 is amended to read: Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers, snow fence barriers and other constructs will be considered to go from the ground to infinity, provided said barrier is at least 6 feet Edited April 18, 2017 by d_striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuidad Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 1 hour ago, d_striker said: I misread that at first. So you're talking about a single barrel at the end of a bunch of double stacked barrels. That's a good question. IMO, even if the barrel is part of a "wall" of double stacked barrels, that portion of the "wall" is not 6' so I would say shooting over it is legal. Just my opinion though. 2.2.3.3 is amended to read: Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers, snow fence barriers and other constructs will be considered to go from the ground to infinity, provided said barrier is at least 6 feet I think I get it. If it's less than 6 feet, one can shoot over it unless otherwise specified in the WSB. Sounds simple enough. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 10 hours ago, nuidad said: I think I get it. If it's less than 6 feet, one can shoot over it unless otherwise specified in the WSB. Sounds simple enough. Thanks Correct. 69" to be exact. (6ft - 3"=69") Before this amendment, the rule was that all walls go from the ground to height constructed unless otherwise specified. Now the default is from ground to infinity on anything at least 69" unless otherwise specified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlm Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 As long as it is stated in the WSB, what's the big deal. If at 6 feet or higher goes to infinity. if lower barrier stops at 4-5 feet that's it. Quote from nuidad: 2.2.3.3 is amended to read: Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers, snow fence barriers and other constructs will be considered to go from the ground to infinity, provided said barrier is at least 6 feet So lets move on IMVHO Thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mhall Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 On April 17, 2017 at 3:28 PM, nuidad said: Does this rule include barrel walls. What about a single barrel at the end of a wall of stacked barrels. I ask because last month when I was considering shooting over a stack of barrels, I asked about the legality of doing that. The MD said no and inserted the "infinity" clause into the WSB and removed the single barrel at the other end of the wall. BTW...a stack of 2 barrels is going to be very close to the 69" limit for this rule. Barrels are barrels, not walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 38 minutes ago, Mhall said: Barrels are barrels, not walls. Please reread 2.2.3.3 (old version AND the new, per the NROI Ruling) and explain to me how barrels would NOT qualify as "all such barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers [...]" It will not matter whether it is a snow fence, wooden wall, pile of tires, or even barrels ... They are ALL subject to the rule - per the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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