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Production Division - Opposable grip from Front Sight


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I'd consider tucking your support thumb down on top of your hand. The only reason mine extends outwards is because of the thumb rest I use.

 

The really important stuff about your grip is the stuff that can't be seen in the picture. How much force you're applying and where you're applying that force.

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Jake: You made the following comment:  "I torque inward towards the barrel axis from my wrists."

 

To me that means that your left hand is providing a clock-wise torque while your right hand is applying a counter-clock-wise torque. With the two rotational forces "meeting" at the barrel. Rather than just squeezing and/or pushing laterally.

 

Is that the general idea or not?

 

Thanks!

Don.

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Jake: You made the following comment:  "I torque inward towards the barrel axis from my wrists."
 
To me that means that your left hand is providing a clock-wise torque while your right hand is applying a counter-clock-wise torque. With the two rotational forces "meeting" at the barrel. Rather than just squeezing and/or pushing laterally.
 
Is that the general idea or not?
 
Thanks!
Don.


I started trying this grip out recently as well. I believe it's the grip Vogel describes in a lot of his videos on YouTube. Seems to work well but I haven't gotten to a point where it's habit.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

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15 hours ago, ddc said:

Jake: You made the following comment:  "I torque inward towards the barrel axis from my wrists."

 

To me that means that your left hand is providing a clock-wise torque while your right hand is applying a counter-clock-wise torque. With the two rotational forces "meeting" at the barrel. Rather than just squeezing and/or pushing laterally.

 

Is that the general idea or not?

 

Thanks!

Don.

 

Hi Don,

 

Yes that's correct. And that rotational force is applied from the wrists without allowing the elbows to flare up and outward.

 

8 hours ago, Dieselvrr said:

 


I started trying this grip out recently as well. I believe it's the grip Vogel describes in a lot of his videos on YouTube. Seems to work well but I haven't gotten to a point where it's habit.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk
 

 

 

Yep that's correct. The difference between Bob and I is our elbow position. The actual force applied to the gun is pretty similar.

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Jake,

So your wrists would be what is called "internally rotated"?

However you mention not flaring the elbows up and outward which to my mind (and my body) would seem to be the natural tendency.

To counteract that tendency would they be either externally rotated or perhaps just forced neutral?

Is Bob Vogel internally rotating both wrists and elbows?

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10 hours ago, ddc said:

So your wrists would be what is called "internally rotated"?

 

Yes.

 

10 hours ago, ddc said:

However you mention not flaring the elbows up and outward which to my mind (and my body) would seem to be the natural tendency.

 

Yes it would be a natural tendency to allow your elbows to flare when applying this type of pressure. Don't let them. It is a bio-mechanically crappy position to have an internally rotated shoulder in flexion.

 

10 hours ago, ddc said:

To counteract that tendency would they be either externally rotated or perhaps just forced neutral?

 

Elbow position is controlled from the shoulder. If I set my shoulders up to be externally rotated my elbows will be more down and in than if I let them flare.

 

10 hours ago, ddc said:

Is Bob Vogel internally rotating both wrists and elbows?

 

I should have been a bit more specific in my last post. The difference between my and his elbow position is because of the difference in our shoulder position. Yes, he's internally rotating his wrists and shoulders while I'm internally rotating my wrists and externally rotating my shoulders.

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22 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

...Elbow position is controlled from the shoulder. If I set my shoulders up to be externally rotated my elbows will be more down and in than if I let them flare....

 

I am a bit confused by this. If I push into the gun with my palms and do a "nut cracker"/pinch grip (grip pressure is from the backstrap to the front, not side to side) and then cam my wrists to control the muzzle flip I feel my elbows rotating slightly and feel my triceps engaging. However, I don't feel my shoulders in the mix at all. Below is a video of my grip in slow fire.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, tanks said:

 

I am a bit confused by this. If I push into the gun with my palms and do a "nut cracker"/pinch grip (grip pressure is from the backstrap to the front, not side to side) and then cam my wrists to control the muzzle flip I feel my elbows rotating slightly and feel my triceps engaging. However, I don't feel my shoulders in the mix at all. Below is a video of my grip in slow fire.

 

It's not that I'm controlling recoil with my shoulders. I'm setting them up in their most mechanically efficient position and am managing the recoil through my grip and stance. The ideal shoulder position gives me the most solid foundation for both applying force into the gun and redirecting the energy of recoil into my torso and ideally then to the ground.

 

When you feel your elbows rotating and your triceps engaging, that means by default that your shoulders are active since both of those areas are downstream (away from the core) of the shoulder.

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3 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

It's not that I'm controlling recoil with my shoulders. I'm setting them up in their most mechanically efficient position and am managing the recoil through my grip and stance. The ideal shoulder position gives me the most solid foundation for both applying force into the gun and redirecting the energy of recoil into my torso and ideally then to the ground.

 

When you feel your elbows rotating and your triceps engaging, that means by default that your shoulders are active since both of those areas are downstream (away from the core) of the shoulder.

 

OK. I get it now. 

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  • 2 months later...

Jake, I've been experimenting with my grip and trying to get closer to Vogel's.  When I rotate my wrists inward, my support hand almost completely loses contact with the bottom of the grip.  Am I doing something wrong?  Though it seems like that rotation is the only way to apply pressure with my support hand while it is canted that far forward.

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49 minutes ago, spencergs said:

Jake, I've been experimenting with my grip and trying to get closer to Vogel's.  When I rotate my wrists inward, my support hand almost completely loses contact with the bottom of the grip.  Am I doing something wrong?  Though it seems like that rotation is the only way to apply pressure with my support hand while it is canted that far forward.

 

Yeah I have a similar experience. I find that the extra pressure towards the barrel axis more than makes up for the slight loss of contact at the bottom of the grip. One thing you may want to double check is that your squeeze with your support hand is being done with roughly the same intensity as your inward pressure. You don't want to be in a place where the up and inward pressure causes your pinky/ring fingers to peel open much.

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On 9/29/2017 at 1:01 PM, Jake Di Vita said:

 

Yeah I have a similar experience. I find that the extra pressure towards the barrel axis more than makes up for the slight loss of contact at the bottom of the grip. One thing you may want to double check is that your squeeze with your support hand is being done with roughly the same intensity as your inward pressure. You don't want to be in a place where the up and inward pressure causes your pinky/ring fingers to peel open much.

I've been working on this further in dryfire, and for a range session yesterday.  I had trouble evaluating performance though.  I took first person video of my grip during recoil, shot fast groups with my eyes closed, and just shot into the berm trying to observe.  I did not notice a lot of difference between my normal grip, and my newly adopted Vogel-esque grip.  Although with the new grip. I definitely FELT more in control of the gun.  The biggest component of this was getting further forward, under the trigger guard.  Similar to the pics of your grip as well Jake, but my support middle finger ends up on top of strong hand middle finger.  Any tips for evaluating grip performance?

 

What's interesting to me, is that rotating the support hand further forward naturally makes me want to cam into the bore with either hand...like the pressure is almost automatic.  The initial awkwardness of the grip might just be because it requires work, and that is probably a good thing.  My typical thumbs-forward grip gives me the option of grip pressure....this grip demands it. 

 

Another interesting thing I noticed with Vogel's grip; When he is showing his grip to the camera  it looks like his support thumb isn't contacting the gun (and is pointing way down), but when he is shooting it almost looks like he is pinching the bottom/front of the trigger guard with his index finger, and his thumb is on the frame: 

 

Screenshot-7.png"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45QhpvY9LZc

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think the answer is, it depends.

How much does your gun recoil/how naturally strong is your grip strength relative to the cartridge you're firing/how strong are your wrists compared to your forearms and shoulders/etc.

 

For one, might not be for another.  I can see the author's point wherein you *might* lose grip strength with your fingers if you cam your wrist all the way forward.  I think an important thing to note is fatigue and if you can handle it.  I think you will find various degrees of true effectiveness in both the stronger grip/non-full cam and the full cam of wrist shooters.

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