Production Division - Opposable grip from Front Sight

[d_striker]

This was what it looked like when I was using a DAA rest.  The pad is a bit further forward which makes my wrist slightly cammed forward. 

 

[Jake Di Vita]

2 hours ago, dvc4you said:

I thought I was doing it wrong all this time, go figure....

 

The hand position doesn't look bad. I'd consider straightening your arms a bit more. I obviously can't judge the force your applying or the direction you're applying it which makes up a large portion of the quality of your grip.

 

57 minutes ago, d_striker said:

This was what it looked like when I was using a DAA rest.  The pad is a bit further forward which makes my wrist slightly cammed forward. 

 

Your wrist doesn't look out of position here. What I don't want to see is a straight line from forearm to tip of thumb. 

[dvc4you]

Thanks for the advice.

[Rnlinebacker]

Crazy I read this article Tuesday and went to the range to try it and I must say it's better for me. I'm 6'2, 260 and previously was using wrist cammed method and constantly had to remind myself to lock it wrist. My draw and first shot weren't pulling left anymore and my transitions are smoother. I'll be using this method going forward

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[CHA-LEE]

Testing of both grip styles FULLY is vital in determining which one is best for you. Just because one style is easier to initially deploy does not automatically make it "Better". When I first started shooting I thought that the locked support hand wrist thumbs forward grip was awkward as shit and took significant effort to train to the point of subconscious execution. I am glad that I stuck with it and honed it to perfection because it works awesome for me.

Edited April 12, 2017 by CHA-LEE

[Jake Di Vita]

People can make anything work well for them if they put enough time into it, even techniques that don't necessarily follow the general biomechanical rules of the body. The question to me isn't what technique can you make work for yourself...the answer to that question is just about anything. What I want to know is what technique would work the best if you could put 10,000 hours into each of them? I'm a performance whore...I have no qualms about making a massive year long change in my technique for a 1% gain in ability.

 

There are loads of shooters out there that perform extremely well with a support wrist that is locked at end range of motion. However I don't think a shooter will ever max out their potential by locking their wrist at end range. Excluding few exceptions, our bodies all operate mechanically in the same fashion. There is a best-fit position for the body to be in for any task. There of course are variances to this best-fit position from person to person, but to me those variances should be more based off things like anthropometry rather than wholesale differences in approach.

 

When we talk about the locked approach, to me the primary advantage lies in the vector that you're applying the force. The wrist isn't "locked" so to speak...your musculature is holding the wrist in that position. It seems logical to me to apply force in the same manner with a wrist that is closer to neutral. The primary disadvantages of locking the support wrist is a diminished capacity to apply force and a limited ability to produce torque towards the barrel axis. With the correct approach, I can gain the advantage of productively applying force in the proper direction while avoiding the disadvantages of the locked wrist.

[CHA-LEE]

What gripping technique to use really depends on the type of firearm being shot, along with the maximum amount of grip force (in pounds) the shooter can produce while maintaining fidelity and precision in the trigger finger.

 

From a grip strength perspective alone which division you choose to shoot in makes a larger difference in your ability to manage recoil effectively. For example, Shooting Major Power Factor ammo out of a compensated Open gun requires significantly less pounds of gripping force to manage the recoil effectively verses a Limited Major gun.

 

Far too many people get distracted by managing the muzzle flip during the slide cycling process when that really does not matter. What does matter is how the gun recovers from the muzzle flip once the slide slams back forward. If you use a weak grip pressure that allows the gun to bounce around after the slide slams forward it does not matter what "Style" of grip you are using because you are still going to be waiting on the sights to settle before you can break the next shot. It just so happens that gripping the gun hard with a significant quantity of gripping force both reduces muzzle flip, but more importantly settles the muzzle bounce after the slide slams forward. 

 

The title of this thread asks if using an opposable grip for Production is viable. In my opinion I say not if you are not gripping the gun hard enough already. There is no getting around the fact that you MUST grip the gun hard with REAL pounds of gripping force. Not just grip the gun as hard as you can and hope that is enough. You need to measure you grip strength so you KNOW that its enough and if it isn't work on building your grip strength until it is strong enough.

 

It drives me bananas when people treat the process of gripping the gun effectively like its a matter of selecting the correct size shoes to fit your feet because your foot size will never change. Your grip strength can absolutely change if you put effort into increasing it. If you have wimpy grip strength then solve the issue by increasing your grip strength. Stop looking for alternative grip styles to accommodate your ineffective grip strength. Or not and live in B class forever.

 

Maximizing performance requires maximizing your efforts to achieve that goal. How many professional athletes avoid doing whatever hard work is required to achieve or maintain their maximum performance?  The sport of practical shooting is no different.

[Dr Mitch]

You don't need thumbs for shooting.  Thumb pressure is dumb pressure.  At best, thumbs deactivate the safety on single action guns.  Work on your grip.

[tanks]

Here is a video that explains it in 60 seconds  

 

 

[Jake Di Vita]

2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

managing the muzzle flip during the slide cycling process when that really does not matter. What does matter is how the gun recovers from the muzzle flip once the slide slams back forward.

 

Here is the main point where we diverge. I think how much the muzzle flips does matter. The less I allow the gun to move, the faster it will recover and the closer it will be to the point where recoil started. My grip has always been really firm, but I manage recoil much better today than I have in the past. The only thing that has changed is the mechanical aspects of my grip. I agree that if someone doesn't have strong hands they should fix that first, but afterwards there's a lot of ground to be made in looking to the other aspects of your grip beyond strength. Strength with low technical expertise isn't as valuable as strength that is productively applied.

 

I use the same grip pressure in Open as I would shooting Limited. The comp plays a much smaller factor in Open than most people think.

 

2 hours ago, Dr Mitch said:

You don't need thumbs for shooting.  Thumb pressure is dumb pressure.  At best, thumbs deactivate the safety on single action guns.  Work on your grip.

 

Thumb pressure is just an extension of wrist pressure. A thumb rest in this case also gives you a point of contact further forward on the gun to apply force on which gives you a bit better leverage. Of course you don't need to have thumb pressure to shoot, that doesn't mean it isn't useful. 

[ArrDave]

How do you measure grip strength and how much is "good" other than "more"


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[YVK]

http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/handgrip.htm, or many others like that.

Or you can use CoC grippers.

 

A nice exercise, from a standpoint of intellectual curiosity, is to test your grip strength at different degrees of a wrist cam angle, or, in medical terms, ulnar deviation, and see what happens. I wouldn't make any inferences myself on what that does to shooting prowess though, I am just a B class.

 

 

 

[ArrDave]

6 minutes ago, YVK said:

http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/handgrip.htm, or many others like that.

Or you can use CoC grippers.

 

A nice exercise, from a standpoint of intellectual curiosity, is to test your grip strength at different degrees of a wrist cam angle, or, in medical terms, ulnar deviation, and see what happens. I wouldn't make any inferences myself on what that does to shooting prowess though, I am just a B class.

 

 

 

Where do you get one of those that's not $250, or get access to one? 

[CHA-LEE]

50 minutes ago, ArrDave said:

How do you measure grip strength and how much is "good" other than "more"


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The below link is to a fairly inexpensive Grip Dyno that you can use to measure your maximum grip strength. I used this grip dyno to test shooters at all skill levels. There was a consistent correlation between higher skill and higher maximum grip strength. The average grip strength per hand for a highly skilled pistol shooter averaged 120lbs. For the best shooters the minimum was about 100 pounds and the maximum was 165lbs. The Limited Major shooters were consistently stronger than the Open or Production shooters. This data is from testing 100+ shooters from D class to World Champion GM's. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Dynamometer-Strength-Measurement-Capturing/dp/B00A8K4L84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492091243&sr=8-1&keywords=camry+grip

[wtturn]

24 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

The below link is to a fairly inexpensive Grip Dyno that you can use to measure your maximum grip strength. I used this grip dyno to test shooters at all skill levels. There was a consistent correlation between higher skill and higher maximum grip strength. The average grip strength per hand for a highly skilled pistol shooter averaged 120lbs. For the best shooters the minimum was about 100 pounds and the maximum was 165lbs. The Limited Major shooters were consistently stronger than the Open or Production shooters. This data is from testing 100+ shooters from D class to World Champion GM's. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Dynamometer-Strength-Measurement-Capturing/dp/B00A8K4L84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492091243&sr=8-1&keywords=camry+grip

 

Got a link to the testing data?  

[CHA-LEE]

Nope. I am not going to make my testing data available online for free. It took over a year to do the testing and compile the data. If people are too lazy to do the hard work on their own then having free data about it isn't going to make any difference. They will still be lazy and not do the hard work. If people are serious about improving their grip strength then they will do the research on their own and put in the hard work do get it done.

[wtturn]

That's fair.  

 

I don't think you have to persuade anyone that a stronger grip = more conducive to better shooting, that seems self-evidently true.  I don't think anyone NEEDS to do a year-long study or heavy research to understand that the better shooters most likely have above-average or even superior grip strength.  

 

I just think the data would be interesting in its own right.

 

Did you conclude that there is a mere correlation between grip strength and skill or that grip strength was the causation of higher skill?

[CHA-LEE]

In the grip strength research and my own experience I found that for the most part exceptional grip strength can be correlated with exceptional shooting skills. Sure there are the outliers where you have shooters with very strong or weak grip strength and they still suck or are very skilled. But for the most part I do see a direct correlation between increased grip strength = increased skill. But I don't think that increasing grip strength alone will magically improve someones shooting skills. I think its more a factor of the higher skilled shooters recognize that exceptional grip strength is an important tool that helps them perform to their peak level. Since its an important tool they put in dedicated work to increase or maintain their exceptional grip strength. This is no different than a power lifter focusing their training on specific muscle groups to enhance their lifting skills. They know that a minimum amount of strength is required for specific muscle groups to get the job done so they focus their training on achieving that goal. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by CHA-LEE

[Blammo]

2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

The below link is to a fairly inexpensive Grip Dyno that you can use to measure your maximum grip strength. I used this grip dyno to test shooters at all skill levels. There was a consistent correlation between higher skill and higher maximum grip strength. The average grip strength per hand for a highly skilled pistol shooter averaged 120lbs. For the best shooters the minimum was about 100 pounds and the maximum was 165lbs. The Limited Major shooters were consistently stronger than the Open or Production shooters. This data is from testing 100+ shooters from D class to World Champion GM's. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Dynamometer-Strength-Measurement-Capturing/dp/B00A8K4L84/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492091243&sr=8-1&keywords=camry+grip

Just out of curiosity is this test done slowly? So a slow squeeze and hold or did you just let them give a quick hard pull? I would think that would be an important factor.

[CHA-LEE]

The testing was done with a squeeze and hold method using varied quantities of fingers and different wrist angles while gripping as hard as they could. Several different variations of the test were performed to verify overall grip strength as well as shooting hand position/finger use grip strength.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'd like to see this data as well. I don't get why you have a problem with posting it for all to see.

[CHA-LEE]

49 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said:

I'd like to see this data as well. I don't get why you have a problem with posting it for all to see.

 

I would also like to know all the training content that would improve my shooting performance for FREE. But that isn't reality. Knowledge costs money. If you don't understand that concept then I can't explain it in a different way that would help you understand. That kind of thinking goes along the same lines as people wanting to get better without putting effort into getting better.

 

Just like you, I have given this forum a metric shit ton of "FREE" advice on improving practical shooting skills. At some point enough is enough. This is one thing where I am not willing to circumvent my training/knowledge investment for the sake of "Inquiring minds want to know". If you really want to know, then perform the testing yourself. At least that way you will find some value in your efforts. Verses endlessly spoon feeding people FREE content when we all know that a very small percentage of them have the motivation to really get better. 

 

 

[Jake Di Vita]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

I would also like to know all the training content that would improve my shooting performance for FREE. But that isn't reality. Knowledge costs money. If you don't understand that concept then I can't explain it in a different way that would help you understand. That kind of thinking goes along the same lines as people wanting to get better without putting effort into getting better.

 

Just like you, I have given this forum a metric shit ton of "FREE" advice on improving practical shooting skills. At some point enough is enough. This is one thing where I am not willing to circumvent my training/knowledge investment for the sake of "Inquiring minds want to know". If you really want to know, then perform the testing yourself. At least that way you will find some value in your efforts. Verses endlessly spoon feeding people FREE content when we all know that a very small percentage of them have the motivation to really get better. 

 

Ultimately I contribute here because this forum has done a lot for me in the past and I love teaching enough to want to do it whether I'm being paid or not. If you're that hung up on being paid for the data you collected, good luck with that. I have shared and will continue to share all of my knowledge and experience because I love the sport and love helping people improve (edit: I'm not saying you don't, I'm just giving my reasons). I don't keep trade secrets behind some perceived paywall. Whether a small number will use it as you and I have or not is irrelevant to me. 

 

You have a right to your position, but I don't share your opinion/philosophy. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by Jake Di Vita

[robertwyatt]

16 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said:

 

Ultimately I contribute here because this forum has done a lot for me in the past and I love teaching enough to want to do it whether I'm being paid or not. If you're that hung up on being paid for the data you collected, good luck with that. I have shared and will continue to share all of my knowledge and experience because I love the sport and love helping people improve. I don't keep trade secrets behind some perceived paywall. Whether a small number will use it as you and I have or not is irrelevant to me. 

 

You have a right to your position, but I don't share your opinion. 

Jake, for whatever it's worth, thanks. I have found all that information in the archives to be really useful now that I've actually started trying to get better. Were it behind a paywall as you call it, I know I personally would just go somewhere else.

[Jake Di Vita]

8 minutes ago, robertwyatt said:

Jake, for whatever it's worth, thanks.

 

My pleasure. I'm happy to have helped.