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VV N320 frustration with inconsistent powder drops


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4 hours ago, pjb45 said:

I use vv320 exclusively on my 1050.  I change out the powder drop to a micro.  It is true I do get some slight variations sometimes.  But over the course of multiple 3 round chrono strings it is pretty consistent.  I mean for years.

So unless you are a bench rest shooter with a trickle drop live with the variations.

 

I kept probably 20 different chrono results from Area and National matches and the variance was usually less than 1 power factor all things equal.

 

All things equal because during a very cold Nationals in Tulsa the PF drop while the next day was warmer and a different match the PF was back at the expect PF.

 

VV320 is a great powder and very consistent for me.

what frustrates me is i'll have a string of 8 awesome numbers over the chrono, all withing 10fps of each other and then something like 60fps slower. ugh!

 

what do you mean powder drop to a micro?

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hmm, i have a large, the one that fills up the whole space and a small, one that takes up half the space and has a spacer above it. there's something smaller than that? guess i need to check this out....

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Is the company Unique Tek?  Pull the Dillon out.

Unless you are measuring and weighing each piece of brass and using a trickle powder measure you are going to get variations. 

There are many other variables in the process to get all weird about variations.

GmanBart and I disagree on chrono technique.  I think we are both right.

Since Area 2 and Nationals use the three shot method, I use many three shot strings and determine if I make my PF.  Then I download all those string into an Excel spreadsheet and look at group of 7, then groups of 10.

I can walk into Area 2 with a NM PF of 167 and hit 166-168 at A2.

 

I use Zero bullets mostly because of Angus.  I have had 200 gr Zero bullets weigh 198,199,200, and 200.1.  Another variable.

 

If you are hitting your power factor with my method, I would not care if there were variations.  Other methods of just as valid.

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Anyone with the micrometer powder bar?

Is it worth the cost or is the factory bar ok?

With my N320 I don't have much variation but with my .223 loads and H335 I get huge variations.

I try and load for 25.0 grains but get variations all the way up to 25.6.


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N320 meters fine, its you checking that makes the inconsistensies, just load at same pace, and its consistend, when you stop check, shake wiggle, this that, its inconsistant, thats why you throw away the first 3-4 rounds when you start loading. 

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47 minutes ago, gixxerjunky said:

With my N320 I don't have much variation but with my .223 loads and H335 I get huge variations.
I try and load for 25.0 grains but get variations all the way up to 25.6.
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That's about 2%. Not too bad unless you are one of those bench rest guys!

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11 minutes ago, ano said:

N320 meters fine, its you checking that makes the inconsistensies, just load at same pace, and its consistend, when you stop check, shake wiggle, this that, its inconsistant, thats why you throw away the first 3-4 rounds when you start loading. 

my inconsistency isn't found at the scale. i do a ten drop test and they come out fine. i do a random pull of ten cases while making ammo and they come out fine.

 

it's when i load a 100 like a metronome and then shoot 30 of them over the chrono and i get an extreme spread of 80fps and a standard deviation of 18 that I become unhappy. what's the point in having 25 good rounds, all within a super awesome low spread when I'll then get 3 or 4 in a row that go from the expected 880-890fps range down into the 820's.

 

yes i used two chronos in tandem with a new battery in each, in the shade. they never measured more than 3fps apart over the couse of firing 3 different 30 rounds strings over three days. i consistently had at least a 10% rate of rounds fired over the chrono failing to make power factor at 3.6 to 3.7 grains of n320 with a 147 gr bullet.

 

basically i have zero confidence in my machine's powder drop to give me a consistent charge of n320 where i can shoot a 130pf, with mixed range brass and have zero worries about passing chrono.

 

and my gun did not run any cooler during sustained practice sessions, even during 60-70 degree weather.

 

the only thing I changed was going from TG to N320 and the amount of turns it took to have the drop yield 3.6 with the new powder. if the only variable that changed was the powder and my results go to crap and after talking with Dillon CS and doing a qc check of my powder measure I have to lay it firmly on the powder.

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That's about 2%. Not too bad unless you are one of those bench rest guys!



I'm. It that anal about the powder but .6 seems like a lot.

I usually do 10 drops and dump them back in. Weigh 3-5 until it's all the same. Load 10 and check.

They are usually all good but when I check about 100 rounds in it will be way over 25 grains.

I have tried to keep filling the powder measure and ensuring that I'm pulling the handle the same. H335 is so thin and soft though that I think it just finds a way into the powder bar.

H335 is almost like dust it's so small and fine ball powder.


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Rowdy -Prima V may be worth a shot. Cheap, cool and WAY cleaner than TG! 

 

Though you'll need to do a lot of test throws to get it settled. It's very consistent once you get it settled. 

 

The other day at the shootout, before they chronoed my ammo I called out 885. It was 884. The second shot was 885. Lucky guess but I knew it'd be somewhere around there. 

 

I always get a SD of like 7-9. Everytime. I've chronoed it 4 times. 

 

 

Now, saying that, it seems some batches get a little more FPS than others. I've apparently got the slower batch 16055. 3.4gr with a 147 xtreme gets me 890 (10 shots) average out of my shadows. 

 

 

Edited by B_RAD
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If you haven't given up yet, I would say that IF you have confirmed that the charge drop is indeed consistent at 3.6 gr, then it's not a charge dropping issue. I doubt it's a VV powder quality issue. My guess it's the FCD, with excessive crimp from this die with mixed headstamp brass. The FCD isn't loved well in 9mm for a variety of reasons, and if you frequent the CZ forum, Wobbly there can give you a PhD dissertation on why the FCD is not ideal for 9mm. When I finish here I will go back and try to find the post that explains this. I would Use the regular Lee 9mm crimp die or the Dillon crimp die, and measure your case mouth at the very very edge to make sure this isn't an over-crimping issue.  I think .376-379 is the goal if I recall.   THAT is more likely to explain chrono variations if you have already affirmed that your charge drop is consistent. The action of the FCD is different than a true taper crimp die. As I understand it the FCD has a movable cylindrical insert with cuts that squeezes the case mouth differently than a taper crimp die. The FCD is more for deliberately pinching the mouth on the bullet, as I understand it..deliberately so at the front edge there. The taper crimp is more just removing any belling, because normal case mouth tension holds the bullet and setback isn't an issue....

 

The unexplained issue is why this is a VV issue and not a TG problem..., if the crimp tightness is the issue, but perhaps the slower burning VV manifests the pressure changes more than TG? I would have guessed the opposite myself, actually, but I'm not an expert in this.

 

I shoot TG and N320 in several 9mm CZs and have had no difference in the chrono profiles in general.

 

I would test with single headstamp brass, after ditching the fCD and measuring your case mouth to ensure you are note tighter than, ,say, .376. If they fit into the barrel then you have debelled (taper crimped) enough.

 

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=78873.0

Edited by Quirk
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2 hours ago, Quirk said:

Wobbly there can give you a PhD dissertation on why the FCD is not ideal for 9mm. When I finish here I will go back and try to find the post that explains this. I would Use the regular Lee 9mm crimp die or the Dillon crimp die, and measure your case mouth at the very very edge to make sure this isn't an over-crimping issue.  I think .376-379 is the goal if I recall.

 

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=78873.0

 

Good post... 

 

Informative article by Wobbly...  I've always used the (caseOD + 2*caseThk) method of crimp calculation, but have gravitated towards subtracting an additional thousandth along the way...  I use Reddings' Micro Adjustable Taper Crimp 9mm die as it is much easier to adjust accurately...  It is more expensive that the standard Lee dies, but it sure is nice when you want to change the crimp by a thousandth...

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I have weighed through all these posts... And have to agree, I get inconsistent results with 320 in my 38 Super Action Pistol gun. Some days 5.0 grains is 4.5 and others it is 5.1 

I can live with 5.1 but 4.5 is a malfunction and my match is gone. 320 shoots great, but it has killed my enthusiasm for VV powders.

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Rowdy, I switched many years ago to N320 exclusively for 9mm. Not that TG was bad, I just didn't like the smoking for Poly/Moly bullets.  I ran plenty of it through my Hornady LNL AP (before selling it) and then my new Super 1050 with Uniquetek micro powder bar.  I did get rid of my Lee FCD, also.   I was able to get my SD down to 2fps. 

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Very interesting post. I've been using N320 for several years now and am getting good consistent drops for 9 mm.

I did install the EGW micro unit on the powder bar as well . Recently installed a MBF on my 650 and was concerned about the new powder funnel as well.....it works fine. 

Something we are not touching on is effecting Rowdys drop....makes no sense .....but what do I know??

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I typically run TG and switched to a little 320 because in low light/dark IDPA matches my flashlight was reflecting off smoke and hiding the targets on occasion. Never did get 320 consistent and gave up. I'm strictly a ball powder guy nowadays. My gun gets hot sometimes I guess because TG is a double base powder, but never unbearable. Guess I don't shoot fast enough...no I definitely don't shoot fast enough. It's the only advantage I have seen to being old and slow. I don't recommend either of those as a solution.

Edited by Brooke
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I've been loading N320 in 9mm Minor for a few years. I've shot 124/125, 135, & 147 gr bullets. I can't recall a SD over 20 in a 10 shot string. I have a 1050, stock powder dropper, and a Redding Seating Die. 

 

When I went to Area 1 I loaded up 950 rounds and chrono'ed 2 strings of 10. Looked at my notes and the SDs were 4 and 6. The Area 1 chrono was 911, 911, 913. It doesn't get more consistent that that! The Area 1 was all FC brass. 

 

I'm wondering if you variation in something other that the powder?

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  • 3 years later...
On 4/12/2017 at 3:30 PM, rowdyb said:

my inconsistency isn't found at the scale. i do a ten drop test and they come out fine. i do a random pull of ten cases while making ammo and they come out fine.

 

it's when i load a 100 like a metronome and then shoot 30 of them over the chrono and i get an extreme spread of 80fps and a standard deviation of 18 that I become unhappy. what's the point in having 25 good rounds, all within a super awesome low spread when I'll then get 3 or 4 in a row that go from the expected 880-890fps range down into the 820's.

 

yes i used two chronos in tandem with a new battery in each, in the shade. they never measured more than 3fps apart over the couse of firing 3 different 30 rounds strings over three days. i consistently had at least a 10% rate of rounds fired over the chrono failing to make power factor at 3.6 to 3.7 grains of n320 with a 147 gr bullet.

 

basically i have zero confidence in my machine's powder drop to give me a consistent charge of n320 where i can shoot a 130pf, with mixed range brass and have zero worries about passing chrono.

 

and my gun did not run any cooler during sustained practice sessions, even during 60-70 degree weather.

 

the only thing I changed was going from TG to N320 and the amount of turns it took to have the drop yield 3.6 with the new powder. if the only variable that changed was the powder and my results go to crap and after talking with Dillon CS and doing a qc check of my powder measure I have to lay it firmly on the powder.

Well I understand this is an old thread but it looks like I ran into the same problem... Shooting Limited with Atlas gun currently. Just switched to N320 because I was able to buy a lot last year and I ran out of A#2 and WST that I was using for a while. I used a lot of different powders in the past including Titegroup, Bullseye, A#2, Power Pistol, 700X, Prima V, Prima SV, Unique. I am sure I forgot something. I have three Dillon presses currently.  I am saying all of this just to show that I am not a new reloader. This is the first time I am trying N320 though.

I am experiencing identical issue with this powder. I tried everything - different press, dies, the same headstamp brass. I weighed every single bullet (Precision Delta) and 30-40 powder drops in a row. Everything was good.  Then I shot 30- 50  of them over the chrono and I would get an extreme spread of 80fps and a standard deviation as high as 33 at some point! 

If anybody has an idea, I'd really appreciate it.

Edited by cheby
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  • 2 years later...
On 4/12/2017 at 3:30 PM, rowdyb said:

my inconsistency isn't found at the scale. i do a ten drop test and they come out fine. i do a random pull of ten cases while making ammo and they come out fine.

 

it's when i load a 100 like a metronome and then shoot 30 of them over the chrono and i get an extreme spread of 80fps and a standard deviation of 18 that I become unhappy. what's the point in having 25 good rounds, all within a super awesome low spread when I'll then get 3 or 4 in a row that go from the expected 880-890fps range down into the 820's.

 

yes i used two chronos in tandem with a new battery in each, in the shade. they never measured more than 3fps apart over the couse of firing 3 different 30 rounds strings over three days. i consistently had at least a 10% rate of rounds fired over the chrono failing to make power factor at 3.6 to 3.7 grains of n320 with a 147 gr bullet.

 

basically i have zero confidence in my machine's powder drop to give me a consistent charge of n320 where i can shoot a 130pf, with mixed range brass and have zero worries about passing chrono.

 

and my gun did not run any cooler during sustained practice sessions, even during 60-70 degree weather.

 

the only thing I changed was going from TG to N320 and the amount of turns it took to have the drop yield 3.6 with the new powder. if the only variable that changed was the powder and my results go to crap and after talking with Dillon CS and doing a qc check of my powder measure I have to lay it firmly on the powder.

I'm having a similar problem hence found this thread.

 

In my case, I've used TG for the longest time for CO.

Now I'm trying to load slow VV powders for open and my spread is, as you mentioned, 80fps when I load like a metronome.

I also think when you start cranking out these extruded powders at a fast pace vs. adjustment pace, the drop is different. I believe less powder goes into the slot when the tool head is in constant motion.

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