Norther Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Interesting thing happened at a match today. Shooter had a squib on his first shot. Shot was too quiet to be picked up by timer. Bullet lodged in barrel prevented his completing the stage. 5.7.7.1 says score it as shot, but what time do you enter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mitch Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 DNF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Does it really matter, enter a bogus number(like 3 seconds), the result will still be a "0" for the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norther Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 7 minutes ago, Bkreutz said: Does it really matter, enter a bogus number(like 3 seconds), the result will still be a "0" for the stage. This is what we did. I don't like bogus numbers, but it seemed the best answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuidad Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 (edited) Couldn't a bogus time be grounds for an appeal under (9.10.2)? If you enter a time of zero, mathematically the result would be indeterminate, so, the RO could make a rational determination that the stage score would be 0. Or: Don't enter a time and rely on 9.7.6 & 9.7.6.1 to provide a rational scoring outcome of zero. Edited April 9, 2017 by nuidad Re-thought wording Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norther Posted April 9, 2017 Author Share Posted April 9, 2017 Practiscore doesnt allow zero time to be entered. Tried that first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuidad Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 I got nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 (edited) My first thought was to enter a 0.00 and score. But I also figured the program wouldn't allow it. Which then made me wonder about what happens when there is a squib in the middle of a stage. The timer might or might not pick up the squib. In which case some squibs might get counted against the shooter's time, while in other cases it isn't, yielding different scores. Chances are this will never actually affect the outcome of a match, though. Another tangent: what happens if there is a squib-like sound and the RO sees the bullet impact and KNOWS there is no obstruction and no safety hazard to the competitor continuing, but the competitor doesn't see (or pretends he didn't see) and therefore stops shooting, basically waiting for the RO to give him a STOP command and a forced reshoot? Edited April 9, 2017 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norther Posted April 9, 2017 Author Share Posted April 9, 2017 15 minutes ago, MAC702 said: Another tangent: what happens if there is a squib-like sound and the RO sees the bullet impact and KNOWS there is no obstruction and no safety hazard to the competitor continuing, but the competitor doesn't see (or pretends he didn't see) and therefore stops shooting, basically waiting for the RO to give him a STOP command and a forced reshoot? If I was the RO, I'd just pointedly show the shooter the timer. Clock is ticking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, six-gun shooter said: If I was the RO, I'd just pointedly show the shooter the timer. Clock is ticking! And a competitor's reaction would then be: "But did you hear what just sounded like a squib?" And how is showing the shooter the timer less of an interference than talking to him? I'd argue that it's more of an interference because I have to think about what you might mean by it. Thinking as a competitor, if I legitimately didn't see the bullet impact, I'm stopping, unless I actually hear someone I trust tell me that a bullet left the gun. But is that coaching or interference? Safety tells me to get confirmation of the bullet leaving, not to just keep shooting until I actually get a STOP command. Edited April 9, 2017 by MAC702 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 I actually had that happen once. It was a 3 gun match and the shooter was on SG ... Slugs. The squib went poof, the slug left the barrel and bounced comically down the range. I watched it bounce ... The shooter watched it bounce. He looked at me and I looked at him. We both shrugged our shoulders, let out a laugh and he kept shooting! In the case you describe, the only option I have as the RO, knowing full well the bullet left the muzzle, is to look at the shooter and issue a range command ... "If you are finished ... etc." If he stops it's on him as I didn't stop him, it WAS safe for him to continue, and I didn't (at least not directly) coach him. Do I have any problem with that? Not at all. My job is to ensure safety and not do anything to influence the shooter's decision-making paradigm absent some safety issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 9.10.3 covers the no shot fired situation. If Practiscore doesn't allow it, well..... someone will fix that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 9.10.3, agreed. So a true squib is not a "fired shot" and the 0.00 is the correct time? Likewise, a squib later in a course of fire should not be counted in the time, but you'd have to know how many real shots were fired and compare it to the timer record to see whether or not to remove the last time? Again, for the latter, it may be more trouble than its worth, or may not be possible, and practically speaking, we can ignore it for match results in all likelihood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 I've seen this happen and I think we just entered a time of 0.01. It really doesn't matter what time you put since it's a zero for the stage. 3 hours ago, MAC702 said: Thinking as a competitor, if I legitimately didn't see the bullet impact, I'm stopping, unless I actually hear someone I trust tell me that a bullet left the gun. But is that coaching or interference? And that's your choice as a shooter, but if the RO saw the bullet impact he shouldn't stop you just because you incorrectly think you had a squib. If I'm ROing and this happens I'd just stand there and look at the shooter; if he acts like he doesn't want to continue shooting then you give the "if you are finished, unload and show clear" command and then score the stage as shot. If it's a Level 1 match and the shooter turns around and asks me as the RO if that was a squib I'll tell him it's not if I saw the impact, see 8.6.2.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 9 hours ago, MAC702 said: basically waiting for the RO to give him a STOP command and a forced reshoot? If your finished unload and show clear should be the RO's response. Then score as shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 On 4/8/2017 at 7:35 PM, Bkreutz said: Does it really matter, enter a bogus number(like 3 seconds), the result will still be a "0" for the stage. Yes, it does matter, per the rules, The True and Correct time has to be recorded and the stage scored as shot. If Practiscore doesn't allow it, that is a problem with the scoring program and needs to be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 On 4/8/2017 at 8:39 PM, MAC702 said: My first thought was to enter a 0.00 and score. But I also figured the program wouldn't allow it. Which then made me wonder about what happens when there is a squib in the middle of a stage. The timer might or might not pick up the squib. In which case some squibs might get counted against the shooter's time, while in other cases it isn't, yielding different scores. Chances are this will never actually affect the outcome of a match, though. Another tangent: what happens if there is a squib-like sound and the RO sees the bullet impact and KNOWS there is no obstruction and no safety hazard to the competitor continuing, but the competitor doesn't see (or pretends he didn't see) and therefore stops shooting, basically waiting for the RO to give him a STOP command and a forced reshoot? If an R.O. Stops a competitor and there is an obstruction in the barrel, it is not a reshoot. If there is no obstruction, there is a reshoot. If the R.O. knows it was not a squib and the shooter Stops himself, and it is apparent the shooter has stopped shooting the Course of Fire, the Proper and Only Range Command that should be given is- If you are finished, unload and show clear. (if you are finished, is a question) then depending on what the competitor does next will dictate what happens next. If the wrong range command is given, it is grounds for a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 (edited) On 4/8/2017 at 11:50 PM, George Jones said: 9.10.3 covers the no shot fired situation. If Practiscore doesn't allow it, well..... someone will fix that? Practiscore will not allow a 0.00 time to be entered and flags the screen and will not allow you to save the stage score as a way to make sure the Time is entered, I sent Practiscore Support an E-Mail asking them to add a feature that if no time is entered, a pop-up screen will appear saying, are you sure you want to record a 0.00 time. I doubt it would be used very often but at a Level II or Level III match it could be a problem. I would request a reshoot if they made up a time and did not record the actual time as shown on the timer. Edited April 11, 2017 by bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkreutz Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, bret said: Yes, it does matter, per the rules, The True and Correct time has to be recorded and the stage scored as shot. If Practiscore doesn't allow it, that is a problem with the scoring program and needs to be fixed. Could you provide the rule on that from the book?, since I can't seem to find it, I'm assuming the "True and Correct" part is your embellishment of the rule book. 5.7.7.1 doesn't say that. Edited April 11, 2017 by Bkreutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC702 Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 Maybe he's paraphrasing from 9.10.1: ...If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage. But this isn't about a faulty timing device, merely not being able to enter a 0.00 that was earned. If I were RO or MD, I would not allow a reshoot for this. If the competitor tried to lawyer this one, I'd score him by hand, and tell him he'll have to wait for the bean-counter to see his results instead of the convenience of Practiscore. Would that be allowed, or would I be required to Practiscore him? Thank you, Bkreutz, for asking for a citation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 On 4/8/2017 at 7:31 PM, Dr Mitch said: DNF Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Bkreutz said: Could you provide the rule on that from the book?, since I can't seem to find it, I'm assuming the "True and Correct" part is your embellishment of the rule book. I didn't quote the rule verbatim. Can you quote any rule that says a true and accurate time and score does not have to be recorded? 9.7.1 says the time has to be recorded to the 2nd decimal point 9.10.3 applies to this case 9.11.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 17 minutes ago, euxx said: Yes! looks like you have it covered, 9.10.3 Has it always been there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 looks like you have it covered, 9.10.3Has it always been there? Next release Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, euxx said: Next release Thanks, That was Quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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