Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Scoring stage as shot with no shot on timer


Norther

Recommended Posts

Interesting thing happened at a match today. Shooter had a squib on his first shot. Shot was too quiet to be picked up by timer. Bullet lodged in barrel prevented his completing the stage. 5.7.7.1 says score it as shot, but what time do you enter?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Bkreutz said:

Does it really matter, enter a bogus number(like 3 seconds), the result will still be a "0" for the stage.

This is what we did. 

I don't like bogus numbers, but it seemed the best answer. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Couldn't a bogus time be grounds for an appeal under (9.10.2)?

 

If you enter a time of zero, mathematically the result would be indeterminate, so, the RO could make a rational determination that the stage score would be 0.

 

Or: 

 

Don't enter a time and rely on 9.7.6 & 9.7.6.1 to provide a rational scoring outcome of zero.

 

Edited by nuidad
Re-thought wording
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My first thought was to enter a 0.00 and score.  But I also figured the program wouldn't allow it.

 

Which then made me wonder about what happens when there is a squib in the middle of a stage.  The timer might or might not pick up the squib.  In which case some squibs might get counted against the shooter's time, while in other cases it isn't, yielding different scores.  Chances are this will never actually affect the outcome of a match, though.

 

Another tangent: what happens if there is a squib-like sound and the RO sees the bullet impact and KNOWS there is no obstruction and no safety hazard to the competitor continuing, but the competitor doesn't see (or pretends he didn't see) and therefore stops shooting, basically waiting for the RO to give him a STOP command and a forced reshoot?

Edited by MAC702
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, MAC702 said:

Another tangent: what happens if there is a squib-like sound and the RO sees the bullet impact and KNOWS there is no obstruction and no safety hazard to the competitor continuing, but the competitor doesn't see (or pretends he didn't see) and therefore stops shooting, basically waiting for the RO to give him a STOP command and a forced reshoot?

If I was the RO, I'd just pointedly show the shooter the timer. Clock is ticking!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, six-gun shooter said:

If I was the RO, I'd just pointedly show the shooter the timer. Clock is ticking!

And a competitor's reaction would then be: "But did you hear what just sounded like a squib?"  And how is showing the shooter the timer less of an interference than talking to him?  I'd argue that it's more of an interference because I have to think about what you might mean by it.

 

Thinking as a competitor, if I legitimately didn't see the bullet impact, I'm stopping, unless I actually hear someone I trust tell me that a bullet left the gun.  But is that coaching or interference?

 

Safety tells me to get confirmation of the bullet leaving, not to just keep shooting until I actually get a STOP command.

Edited by MAC702
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually had that happen once.  It was a 3 gun match and the shooter was on SG ... Slugs.  The squib went poof, the slug left the barrel and bounced comically down the range.  I watched it bounce ... The shooter watched it bounce.  He looked at me and I looked at him.  We both shrugged our shoulders, let out a laugh and he kept shooting!

 

In the case you describe, the only option I have as the RO, knowing full well the bullet left the muzzle, is to look at the shooter and issue a range command ... "If you are finished ... etc."  If he stops it's on him as I didn't stop him, it WAS safe for him to continue, and I didn't (at least not directly) coach him.  Do I have any problem with that?  Not at all.  My job is to ensure safety and not do anything to influence the shooter's decision-making paradigm absent some safety issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9.10.3, agreed.  So a true squib is not a "fired shot" and the 0.00 is the correct time?  Likewise, a squib later in a course of fire should not be counted in the time, but you'd have to know how many real shots were fired and compare it to the timer record to see whether or not to remove the last time?  Again, for the latter, it may be more trouble than its worth, or may not be possible, and practically speaking, we can ignore it for match results in all likelihood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've seen this happen and I think we just entered a time of 0.01.  It really doesn't matter what time you put since it's a zero for the stage.

 

3 hours ago, MAC702 said:

Thinking as a competitor, if I legitimately didn't see the bullet impact, I'm stopping, unless I actually hear someone I trust tell me that a bullet left the gun.  But is that coaching or interference?

And that's your choice as a shooter, but if the RO saw the bullet impact he shouldn't stop you just because you incorrectly think you had a squib.  If I'm ROing and this happens I'd just stand there and look at the shooter; if he acts like he doesn't want to continue shooting then you give the "if you are finished, unload and show clear" command and then score the stage as shot.  If it's a Level 1 match and the shooter turns around and asks me as the RO if that was a squib I'll tell him it's not if I saw the impact, see 8.6.2.1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, MAC702 said:

basically waiting for the RO to give him a STOP command and a forced reshoot?

If your finished unload and show clear should be the RO's response.  Then score as shot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/8/2017 at 7:35 PM, Bkreutz said:

Does it really matter, enter a bogus number(like 3 seconds), the result will still be a "0" for the stage.

Yes, it does matter, per the rules, The True and Correct time has to be recorded and the stage scored as shot.

If Practiscore doesn't allow it, that is a problem with the scoring program and needs to be fixed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/8/2017 at 8:39 PM, MAC702 said:

My first thought was to enter a 0.00 and score.  But I also figured the program wouldn't allow it.

 

Which then made me wonder about what happens when there is a squib in the middle of a stage.  The timer might or might not pick up the squib.  In which case some squibs might get counted against the shooter's time, while in other cases it isn't, yielding different scores.  Chances are this will never actually affect the outcome of a match, though.

 

Another tangent: what happens if there is a squib-like sound and the RO sees the bullet impact and KNOWS there is no obstruction and no safety hazard to the competitor continuing, but the competitor doesn't see (or pretends he didn't see) and therefore stops shooting, basically waiting for the RO to give him a STOP command and a forced reshoot?

 

If an R.O. Stops a competitor and there is an obstruction in the barrel, it is not a reshoot.

If there is no obstruction, there is a reshoot.

If the R.O. knows it was not a squib and the shooter Stops himself, and it is apparent the shooter has stopped shooting the Course of Fire, the Proper and Only Range Command that should be given is-

If you are finished, unload and show clear. (if you are finished, is a question)

then depending on what the competitor does next will dictate what happens next.

If the wrong range command is given, it is grounds for a reshoot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/8/2017 at 11:50 PM, George Jones said:

9.10.3 covers the no shot fired situation. 

 

If Practiscore doesn't allow it, well.....  someone will fix that?

 
 

Practiscore will not allow a 0.00 time to be entered and flags the screen and will not allow you to save the stage score as a way to make sure the Time is entered,

I sent Practiscore Support an E-Mail asking them to add a feature that if no time is entered, a pop-up screen will appear saying, are you sure you want to record a 0.00 time.

I doubt it would be used very often but at a Level II or Level III match it could be a problem.

I would request a reshoot if they made up a time and did not record the actual time as shown on the timer.

Edited by bret
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, bret said:

Yes, it does matter, per the rules, The True and Correct time has to be recorded and the stage scored as shot.

If Practiscore doesn't allow it, that is a problem with the scoring program and needs to be fixed.

Could you provide the rule on that from the book?, since I can't seem to find it, I'm assuming the "True and Correct" part is your embellishment of the rule book. 5.7.7.1 doesn't say that.        

Edited by Bkreutz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe he's paraphrasing from 9.10.1: ...If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

 

But this isn't about a faulty timing device, merely not being able to enter a 0.00 that was earned.  If I were RO or MD, I would not allow a reshoot for this.  If the competitor tried to lawyer this one, I'd score him by hand, and tell him he'll have to wait for the bean-counter to see his results instead of the convenience of Practiscore.  Would that be allowed, or would I be required to Practiscore him?

 

Thank you, Bkreutz, for asking for a citation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Bkreutz said:

Could you provide the rule on that from the book?, since I can't seem to find it, I'm assuming the "True and Correct" part is your embellishment of the rule book.

I didn't quote the rule verbatim.

Can you quote any rule that says a true and accurate time and score does not have to be recorded?

9.7.1 says the time has to be recorded to the 2nd decimal point

9.10.3 applies to this case

9.11.2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...