Off the line with a unloaded magazine - DQ?

[narwhal]

Asking for a friend - 

 

Let's say during the course of a match someone is walking around with an otherwise clear weapon except they have an empty magazine inserted - either due to an R.O. oversight after shooting a stage or because the shooter inserted one for some reason between stages.

 

Is this a DQ for the shooter?

 

Thanks.

Edited April 6, 2017 by narwhal

[Kraj]

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

 

That's the uspsa rule. You said SO, I'm not sure if the same thing applies to idpa

Edited April 6, 2017 by Kraj

[MAC702]

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited activity during an (sic) USPSA match will be disqualified from that match...

 

So, does that follow the "corrective action" of 5.2.2?  I would hope not, so this is a good question in the OP.  I'm always looking for reasons why something is NOT a DQ unless obvious.  I would hope this isn't, but 10.3.1 seems overly broad to be a rule with its own paragraph.

 

The fact that nothing else is mentioned in 5.2.2 gives me hope this is not a DQ.  Perhaps it's not considered a "safety infraction" nor a "prohibited activity."

Edited April 6, 2017 by MAC702

[tyler2you]

At least in USPSA, it wouldn't be a DQ offense.  As Kraj pointed out, if an RO noticed, he would need to be escorted to a safe area to remove the magazine and ensure the weapon was clear.

[ktm300]

For USPSA 5.2.2 Is the correct rule.  If the magazine has bullets in it there would be a DQ.

10.3.1 doesn't fit as having an empty magazine in the gun is not defined as a safety infraction.  Prohibited activities are things like drinking etc.

 

In IDPA I have no idea.

[ChuckS]

9 minutes ago, narwhal said:

Asking for a friend - 

 

Let's say during the course of a match someone is walking around with an otherwise clear weapon except they have an empty magazine inserted - either due to an S.O. oversight after shooting a stage or because the shooter inserted one for some reason between stages.

 

Is this a DQ for the shooter?

 

Thanks.

You may want to edit the title of this thread where it says "loaded magazine"

[motosapiens]

Yeah, if no bullets (or dummy rounds) in the mag, this is cut and dried. no dq, escort to safe table, verify weapon is clear, have a nice day.

 

in my experience this generally happens when someone is practicing empty mag reloads at the safe table (like before a classifier or empty gun start), and after the last one, neglects to remove the magazine.

[rowdyb]

I've also seen people go to a safe area and practice their reload with an empty mag and leave it in by mistake when they walk away.

[pjb45]

Seems explicit with the wording "corrective action."  Unloaded magazine the corrective action would be to remove the unloaded magazine under supervision of the RO.

No DQ for an unloaded magazine.

[MAC702]

Agreed.  I like clear rules like 5.2.2.  I don't like 10.3.1.

[Nik Habicht]

On 4/6/2017 at 1:59 PM, motosapiens said:

Yeah, if no bullets (or dummy rounds) in the mag, this is cut and dried. no dq, escort to safe table, verify weapon is clear, have a nice day.

 

in my experience this generally happens when someone is practicing empty mag reloads at the safe table (like before a classifier or empty gun start), and after the last one, neglects to remove the magazine.

 

Probably the only thing I'd do differently is assume the gun is loaded, and use an actual bay -- not a safe table.  That may be a belt and suspenders difference, but around here safe tables usually face the side berm.  I'd rather have the muzzle pointing directly downrange.....

[George Jones]

+1

[MAC702]

Side berms can take bullets, we do it on the stages all the time, and that's under timeclock stress.  If you are worried about checking the status of an unknown gun at a Safety Area, you need to rethink your Safety Areas.  If there are bullets in the gun, it's a DQ whether you are at the Safety Area or not.  That's not to say you don't use a bay when available, but I wouldn't give it undue priority over using a more convenient Safety Area.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

1 hour ago, MAC702 said:

Side berms can take bullets, we do it on the stages all the time, and that's under timeclock stress.  If you are worried about checking the status of an unknown gun at a Safety Area, you need to rethink your Safety Areas.  If there are bullets in the gun, it's a DQ whether you are at the Safety Area or not.  That's not to say you don't use a bay when available, but I wouldn't give it undue priority over using a more convenient Safety Area.

 

Kinda gotta agree with this guy. 

[Nik Habicht]

19 hours ago, MAC702 said:

Side berms can take bullets, we do it on the stages all the time, and that's under timeclock stress.  If you are worried about checking the status of an unknown gun at a Safety Area, you need to rethink your Safety Areas.  If there are bullets in the gun, it's a DQ whether you are at the Safety Area or not.  That's not to say you don't use a bay when available, but I wouldn't give it undue priority over using a more convenient Safety Area.

I guess I think of it from the perspective of having to explain it in a courtroom -- Do I really want to answer question like this: Why didn't you have the competitor face directly downrange, thereby availing yourself of the safety of the back and side berms, and reducing the possibility of the competitor pointing the gun uprange?

 

Why would you not want to take the safest course of action in a given situation?

 

[Nik Habicht]

17 hours ago, Ultimo-Hombre said:

 

Kinda gotta agree with this guy. 

OK -- so do you guys leave every third bay open as a safety bay?  

[MAC702]

2 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

I guess I think of it from the perspective of having to explain it in a courtroom -- Do I really want to answer question like this: Why didn't you have the competitor face directly downrange, thereby availing yourself of the safety of the back and side berms, and reducing the possibility of the competitor pointing the gun uprange?

 

Why would you not want to take the safest course of action in a given situation?

 

Contrariwise, can you explain to the courtroom why your Safety Area is not an acceptable bullet backstop, and why we permit shots under a course of fire to be at side berms on the clock, especially with the evidence in fact that not everyone pulls it off safely and must be DQ'd from a match?

Edited April 9, 2017 by MAC702

[George Jones]

Not all safety areas are created equal.  I have seen too many which are only marginally acceptable.

 

I would never use a safety area when dealing with a firearm which MIGHT be loaded.

[MAC702]

Marginal is not a good description of a Safety Area, I'll give you that.

Edited April 10, 2017 by MAC702

[d_striker]

Not to mention that if there actually is ammo in the magazine, you are now handling ammo in a safety area.

[d_striker]

On 4/6/2017 at 11:59 AM, motosapiens said:

Yeah, if no bullets (or dummy rounds) in the mag, this is cut and dried. no dq, escort to safe table, verify weapon is clear, have a nice day.

 

in my experience this generally happens when someone is practicing empty mag reloads at the safe table (like before a classifier or empty gun start), and after the last one, neglects to remove the magazine.

 

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

[MAC702]

3 minutes ago, d_striker said:

Not to mention that if there actually is ammo in the magazine, you are now handling ammo in a safety area.

It is already a DQ anyway, whether it is done at a Safety Area or a target bay.

Edited April 10, 2017 by MAC702

[d_striker]

7 minutes ago, MAC702 said:

It is already a DQ anyway, whether it is done at a Safety Area or a target bay.

 

That is true...

[Ultimo-Hombre]

21 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

OK -- so do you guys leave every third bay open as a safety bay?  

Eh?

 

no, was agreeing that using a safety area to check a gun is totally reasonable. 

 

I carry (as I'm sure most here do) every day, and I load and unload my pistol without incident. If your safety area doesn't have a large berm directly in front of it capable of containing a bullet, well no bueno. 

 

 

[Nik Habicht]

On the East Coast where land  is at a premium -- there's a berm directly in front of the Safe Area/Table that can contain a bullet.  Turn 45 degrees left or right, depending on which side of the bay the safety area is on though, and you're probably looking at competitors moving from bay to bay.....

 

The fact that we use the entire 180 to engage targets isn't germane to the discussion at hand -- which is the deliberate inspection of and possible unloading of a firearm.  There's no reason we can't wait a minute for the shooter on the bay to finish, and then arrange to do that in the location deemed safest......