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Got it, slower powders for 9 major!


racer-x

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Racer-x could you just send your barrel back to Bobby and have ream it deeper, as he should have the reamer to do it. I would think you would just need to ship the barrel and not the whole gun so shipping would not be much. 

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20 hours ago, kneelingatlas said:

 

A time bomb?!?

 

Is it possible you're being a little dramatic?  You also reference "so many close calls", can you give an example?

 

Granted I've only been shooting 9 major a little under five years, but I have experienced nothing more dramatic than a stepped case coming apart, nor have spoken to anyone who has experience a 9 major mishap which caused permanent damage to personal or property.  Have you experienced something like that?

 

Vihtavuori lists a 9x21 major load which can be loaded in a 9x19 case: 9.4gr of 3n38 under a 115gr JHP at 1.161" for 171pf (which happens to be my favorite load).  I'm willing to assume Vihtavuori would not publish a load which didn't fall within SAAMI specifications for pressure, would you call that a same assumption?

Yes, you are correct there are loads that will make major and can be loaded in a 9X19. What I meant by ticking time bomb is when shooters decide to use a powder that isn't suitable for this and exceed the charts by quite a bit. I guess you could do this with other calibers but I seem to see it more looking at loads for the 9 major. Yes I have seen quite a few case head separations, from the minor ones to the ones that blow out the magazine. Seen a chamber split and lock the gun up but I couldn't be sure of the cause. My point is that using anything but the slowest powder is just asking for trouble and looking at burn rate charts to come up with a load is not a good idea. I've seen guys loads on this forum that exceed the charts by quite a bit with a particular powder and I'm sure you have too.  

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14 minutes ago, 357SIG said:

My point is that using anything but the slowest powder is just asking for trouble and looking at burn rate charts to come up with a load is not a good idea. I've seen guys loads on this forum that exceed the charts by quite a bit with a particular powder and I'm sure you have too.  

 

Not sure if you are referring to this thread or not?

 

We all agree that using slow powders for 9 major loads is best. My point with this thread is that the very definition of 'slow' is elusive - it depends.

I'm not looking at the burn rates to come up with a load, but searching for the best candidates for my load development.

Find the slowest powder that makes major PF reliably, performs well and with minimal bad tendencies.

 

Speaking of bad tendencies, I Just got back from my first day at the range with AA#7 and cleaning my gun. Dirty, dirty, dirty. Gritty gunk all over. Was thinking a car wash might be the ticket (kidding). One malfunction where my trigger could not be pulled back. I want to like this powder because it's at the slow end of the spectrum, but it is too dirty to be reliable for me. It's gassy for sure, but I didn't like the dot tracking as much as other loads I've been working with either.

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I've shot a few hundred rounds of HS-6 loads now and really like them with 115's - best dot tracking I've seen with my gun so far.

The gun was a little dirtier after the HS-6 session (compared to my WAC or 3N38 loads), but it didn't seem detrimental to the gun. Was like a super fine mist or soot with no chunks that I found. I'd like cleaner, but so far this seems quite acceptable.

 

Until I get the barrel throated properly for longer OAL's, I will probably stick with HS-6 & 115's.

 

I'll give the 3N38 another try when I can load longer.

Trying to keep those loads under 1.145 is a chore (where bullet contacts throat in my gun) - the bullets tend to push back out a little from the compressed charge.

Even with 3n38's relatively forgiving nature, I do not want to risk the pressure of bullets starting out pressed into the throat. 

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On 4/9/2017 at 9:45 AM, racer-x said:

I've shot a few hundred rounds of HS-6 loads now and really like them with 115's - best dot tracking I've seen with my gun so far.

The gun was a little dirtier after the HS-6 session (compared to my WAC or 3N38 loads), but it didn't seem detrimental to the gun. Was like a super fine mist or soot with no chunks that I found. I'd like cleaner, but so far this seems quite acceptable.

 

Until I get the barrel throated properly for longer OAL's, I will probably stick with HS-6 & 115's.

 

I'll give the 3N38 another try when I can load longer.

Trying to keep those loads under 1.145 is a chore (where bullet contacts throat in my gun) - the bullets tend to push back out a little from the compressed charge.

Even with 3n38's relatively forgiving nature, I do not want to risk the pressure of bullets starting out pressed into the throat. 

 

Not to hijack the thread, but what bullet are you using?  I'm a long time open shooter and HS-6 is a great forgiving powder.  I would not be shooting open HS-6 loads at < 1.145.  Have you chrono'd that load? 1.168 is recommended.  I've never had a barrel that would not run 115-124s at 1.168 and most would go longer (1.168 works for STI mags with spacers)

 

 

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124 & 115 Montana Gold JHP's. Yes, all loads worked up to in steps using chrono while watching cases & primers for pressure signs.

I've run long 9major loads for years in my previous open guns.

 

My current CK Thunder has a very short throat and PVD barrel ( 2 different regular tool steel throaters didn't even leave a mark).

Plunk testing this barrel with these MG-JHP's contact throat with a 1.145 OAL.

I'm waiting on a PT&G carbide throater that should be hard enough to do the job.

 

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1 hour ago, d_striker said:

CFE Pistol is said to be very close to WAC, but it looks like it takes a little bit more powder to make the same PF as WAC.

 

Do you guys think it's slightly slower than WAC?

It is the same powder, as confirmed by Chris Hodgdon himself. CFE just has some additive to make it cleaner I guess. 

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1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:

It is the same powder, as confirmed by Chris Hodgdon himself. CFE just has some additive to make it cleaner I guess. 

 

Interesting.  I knew they were close but didn't know they were identical.

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Just cracked open my last 8lbs of 7625.  Once it's gone I will be going to WAC.  During the powder shortage I did use 3N37 without any issue.  If it wasn't so expensive I would have no issue going back to it.

Before you go to WAC try some of my loads. Slower is better, you can trust me on that!
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Finally got to shoot some more 115's with HS-6 at 172ish PF. Very, very nice.

Gun is flat and dot is quick and right back where it started.

8.60 gr HS-6 for 1499fps MG115JHP @ 1.135 OAL 

 

Interesting to note was the sound. With my Pro Ears electronic muffs, I can hear the gasses whistling through the barrel holes & comp significantly more than the same PF WAC load. Can also feel more gas in my face & hair. Only other load I've felt * heard the gas whistle with in this gun is with 3N38.

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8 hours ago, racer-x said:

Finally got to shoot some more 115's with HS-6 at 172ish PF. Very, very nice.

Gun is flat and dot is quick and right back where it started.

8.60 gr HS-6 for 1499fps MG115JHP @ 1.135 OAL 

 

Interesting to note was the sound. With my Pro Ears electronic muffs, I can hear the gasses whistling through the barrel holes & comp significantly more than the same PF WAC load. Can also feel more gas in my face & hair. Only other load I've felt * heard the gas whistle with in this gun is with 3N38.

Wow you must have super spidey senses compared to me because In my experimenting when I first got an open gun, I couldnt even tell the difference between HS6 and Autocomp. There is a slight change in feel but IMO One isnt drastically better than the other and I certainly couldnt tell you which is which. Load them up in the same mag with the same bullet at the same power factor and dont tell me which is which and I could not put one over the other or tell you what is what and thats the honest truth. I certainly couldnt tell if more wind was blowing in my face than the other that is for sure.

 

I read alllllll the hype about this powder is so much different than this one and only use HS6 ect. and when I finally shot multiple different loads back to back after a lot of wasted time and effort and money, none of it mattered. I still sucked and the gun shot ALMOST the same. Im throwing this out there for the reader who reads this like I would have when I first started playing with open and spent way more time thinking about powder to use looking for the magic recipe instead of just spending my time loading a bunch of rounds with whatever powder I had (that is safe of course) and shot them.

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11 hours ago, Gooldylocks said:


Before you go to WAC try some of my loads. Slower is better, you can trust me on that!

That would be great.  So far we have tested:  WAC, Silhouette, AA#7, 3N37, CFE Pistol, Win-231. 

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That would be great.  So far we have tested:  WAC, Silhouette, AA#7, 3N37, CFE Pistol, Win-231. 

WAC and CFE, as has been noted, is the same powder. So if i were gonna use one of those I would just figure out which one is cheaper, I recall CFE was at one point a couple dollars cheaper per 8#.

AA7 rocks, but is kind of a PITA to load

231 seems scary fast

3n37 is good, 38 is better (But a PITA to load, again)

No experience with sil other than just 20 rounds maybe, so no comment other than it seemed fine

I just like HS6 because it's cheap, easy to load, and pretty slow. You are more than welcome to give mine a try this weekend if you would like.
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Loaded well over 100K of 9 Major loads ranging from 6.9-7.5 (7.5 is a V6 set up) without issue in the last 2-3 years. Only problems came from stepped brass.

 

CFE Pistol and WAC might be the "Same" powder, but they chronoed very differently out of the same gun, for me.

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1 hour ago, Gooldylocks said:


WAC and CFE, as has been noted, is the same powder. So if i were gonna use one of those I would just figure out which one is cheaper, I recall CFE was at one point a couple dollars cheaper per 8#.

AA7 rocks, but is kind of a PITA to load

231 seems scary fast

3n37 is good, 38 is better (But a PITA to load, again)

No experience with sil other than just 20 rounds maybe, so no comment other than it seemed fine

I just like HS6 because it's cheap, easy to load, and pretty slow. You are more than welcome to give mine a try this weekend if you would like.

I will take you up on that.  

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7 hours ago, Shmella said:

Wow you must have super spidey senses compared to me because In my experimenting when I first got an open gun, I couldnt even tell the difference between HS6 and Autocomp. There is a slight change in feel but IMO One isnt drastically better than the other and I certainly couldnt tell you which is which. Load them up in the same mag with the same bullet at the same power factor and dont tell me which is which and I could not put one over the other or tell you what is what and thats the honest truth. I certainly couldnt tell if more wind was blowing in my face than the other that is for sure.

 

I read alllllll the hype about this powder is so much different than this one and only use HS6 ect. and when I finally shot multiple different loads back to back after a lot of wasted time and effort and money, none of it mattered. I still sucked and the gun shot ALMOST the same. Im throwing this out there for the reader who reads this like I would have when I first started playing with open and spent way more time thinking about powder to use looking for the magic recipe instead of just spending my time loading a bunch of rounds with whatever powder I had (that is safe of course) and shot them.

 

No spidey senses :)

I can also hear my cartridges advancing in the magazine each shot (double-plugged with the volume at max on Pro Ears)...

The whistling sound and gas in my face with this load, in this gun was distinct every shot (CK Thunder - 3 holes in barrel, 3 chamber comp).

Sound was not there with the WAC loads I was going back to back with.

Not sure I would hear it without Pro Ears though.

 

The 172PF HS-6 115 load had less vertical dot movement and hit noticeably harder in the hand (compared to WAC load).

Strange to me was that the 172PF HS-6 and WAC loads with 124's performed nearly identical.

 

I've shot a bunch of WAC in the last year, and overall I like it for 9major.

Need to shoot HS-6 more to get a feel for if its 'dirty' critique is any issue for me. So far, that doesn't seem to be a problem.

Glass on my RTS2 is barely dirty after 200 round practice.

When cleaning gun after, I found no grit, just some smoky residue inside slide and upper frame area.

Doesn't seem any dirtier than WAC really.

 

You make a good point in that relatively big differences between loads is still a very small part of the whole shooting equation.

There is no magic powder, load, bullet or gun that will make you a GM. Best to find a reliable load that you like in your gun and get used to it.

Training, knowing your gun, and reliability are where it's at. 

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