Seeking clarification for I.P.S.C rule 5.2.4.1

[oldmanjack]

How would you interpret I.P.S.C rule 5.2.4.1 with reference to the revised edition of January 2017?

Rule 5.2.4.1 states the following: "When a Competitor Ready Condition requires that magazines or speed loaders be placed on a table or similar, the competitor may retrieve and carry those items anywhere on their person after the Start Signal, and this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional equipment placement rules".

This rule if you will to my understanding contradicts the rules with reference to Standard, Production and Classic division under I.P.S.C rules governing divisional equipment placement for the divisions mentioned above.

Am I to understand that I can place an earth magnet lets say attached with a industrial strength velcro in the center of my body on my belt for say a stage that requires what is stated in rule 5.2.4.1 and I will not be thrown in open division? I am trying to game it out here given I.P.S.C is freestyle. Is this a loophole that gamers in the above mentioned divisions can take advantage of? Or am I reading this all wrong.

Edited April 2, 2017 by oldmanjack

[pjb45]

Nice Job.  Based on just what is written in the post, I would agree with you.  5.2.4.1 takes precedence over all other rules as it is stated.

 

The WSB could deal with 5.2.4.1 by saying your first magazine has to be on the table.  Since the rule uses the plural, having on one mag/loader on the table does not activate the rule.  I have seen this concept used many times in local matches (USPSA),

[oldmanjack]

The way I see it...there are a lot of earth magnets that are being sold on ebay of say a dimension of 3/8" x 1 1/4" dia.. I would acquire one of these and fit it out with an industrial strength hook & loop (Velcro) and attach one end onto the center front of the belt and one to the back of the earth magnet. This basically means you can install the earth magnet on or off on demand with respect to stages that would fall under rule 5.2.4.1. Just before you walk up to the start position or better yet...when the command "Make Ready" is given...you calmly pull the earth magnet out of your pocket and affix it to your belt with the hook and loop (Velcro) you had installed on your rig the night before say. If you shoot in the divisions mentioned initially in this post...the earth magnet must be set-up in a way for you to be able to put it on or take it off based on the stage requirement with respect to rule 5.2.4.1. Otherwise there is a danger of you being thrown in open division because you are not in conformity with rules governing equipment placement in those divisions. In other words the earth magnet goes on prior to commencement of the stage with respect to rule 5.2.4.1 and comes off after the command "Range is clear" is given by the officiating range officer, always with respect to rule 5.2.4.1. I know a lot of you reading this are saying that is cheating. Remember that I.P.S.C is a game and most importantly "Freestyle" and all I am doing is gaming it out and trying to find a way with respect to the rules...in this case rule 5.2.4.1 in order to gain an edge.

[waktasz]

I don't think that velcro idea is a very good one. Those magnets are strong.

 

[oldmanjack]

Okay...waktasz...tell you what I will experiment with the idea and get back to you with the outcome.

Meanwhile let's get back to the interpretation and clarification of rule 5.2.4.1.

pjb45 stated that the world shooting body of I.P.S.C can come up with a particular solution in order to potentially close the loophole.

Well it all depends on the stage procedure. I shot a stage recently that required an empty gun be placed on the table in its safe condition with of course the hammer down and all the required magazines be placed on the table next to the gun for a start. This was a medium course and you were required only to use the loaded magazines placed on the table in order to execute and complete the course of fire. This is where a magnetic magazine holder like the ones offered by Ghost or Double Alpha and Black Scorpion shine. But if you are shooting in the divisions mentioned in the opening post and must respect divisional equipment placement then you may be at a bit of a disadvantage if we compare with equipment placement in open division. Rule 5.2.4.1 levels the playing field between standard, production & classic divisions in relation to open division in such a scenario with reference again to rule 5.2.4.1. So the question here is how can we in standard, production and classic take full advantage of rule 5.2.4.1 to equal the playing field with equipment placement on par with open division competitors in such a scenario. I do not know how better to present this discovery in rule 5.2.4.1 as it refers to a particular start scenario but would like to exploit it with all of your help.

[pjb45]

I am thinking you  must not change your equipment during the match.

You might have a problem:

 

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required

by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied

equip

ment

on the belt

must not be moved or changed by a

competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a

holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior

to issuance of the “Standby” command.

 

5.2.4

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated

otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or

speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to

the compe

titor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the

location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item

12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed

loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s

) f

orward of the

restriction point

will be

allowed

providing they are not

removed from

the apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the

command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”

.

(e.g.

– a magazine may

be retrieved from a front pocket to faci

litate loading before the start

signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty).

When

stipulations in the WSB require placement of magazines or speed

loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices

prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is

allowed. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading

devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the

equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as

long as they

remain in the hand.

[George Jones]

The OP asked about IPSC rules.  You appear to have quoted USPSA rules (simply because they look so familiar to me  ).

 

The IPSC rules may be different.  I wouldn't know.

[oldmanjack]

Okay you have a point with regard to rule 5.2.5.3 that still does not explain clearly the use and application of rule 5.2.4.1.

Is it okay if we use a pair 5.11 tactical pants with that small cell phone pocket and put the earth magnet in there and slap my magazine onto that upon the start signal given the scenario with respect to rule 5.2.4.1? I am trying to wrap my head around the need and purpose of including rule 5.2.4.1 in the latest edition of the I.P.S.C rule book and whether or not it is being truly applied in scenarios it makes referance to? Is there any devil's advocates out there that can disect this dilema of when and how rule 5.2.4.1 would be applied by a range officiel and how a competitor may exploited it for favorable results without being thrown in open division? Remember that the pistol is empty in its safe condition placed on a table for a table start along with all required magazines in order to complete the course of fire for example.

[pjb45]

Here is how I would Abr. it.  The earth mag is allied equipment.  It is always in  my pocket.  I did not violate 5.2.4.1.  So I am legal.

 

I have been to Area matches where competitor(s) tried to remove a belt with mag holders..  The RO so ok as long as it stays removed. :-)

 

The Rio Salado/Desert Classic probably has more CRO than any place else.  They are pretty good about knowing the rules and how shooters will try and get around them.

 

After many discussions with MD at Area and Nationals for myself or squad mates, I finally lost one this year.  Such is life.

 

 

[bret]

15 hours ago, oldmanjack said:

The way I see it...there are a lot of earth magnets that are being sold on ebay of say a dimension of 3/8" x 1 1/4" dia.. I would acquire one of these and fit it out with an industrial strength hook & loop (Velcro) and attach one end onto the center front of the belt and one to the back of the earth magnet. This basically means you can install the earth magnet on or off on demand with respect to stages that would fall under rule 5.2.4.1. Just before you walk up to the start position or better yet...when the command "Make Ready" is given...you calmly pull the earth magnet out of your pocket and affix it to your belt with the hook and loop (Velcro) you had installed on your rig the night before say. If you shoot in the divisions mentioned initially in this post...the earth magnet must be set-up in a way for you to be able to put it on or take it off based on the stage requirement with respect to rule 5.2.4.1. Otherwise there is a danger of you being thrown in open division because you are not in conformity with rules governing equipment placement in those divisions. In other words the earth magnet goes on prior to commencement of the stage with respect to rule 5.2.4.1 and comes off after the command "Range is clear" is given by the officiating range officer, always with respect to rule 5.2.4.1. I know a lot of you reading this are saying that is cheating. Remember that I.P.S.C is a game and most importantly "Freestyle" and all I am doing is gaming it out and trying to find a way with respect to the rules...in this case rule 5.2.4.1 in order to gain an edge.

Can't change or alter your gear once the match starts.

 

[Schutzenmeister]

6 hours ago, George Jones said:

The OP asked about IPSC rules.  You appear to have quoted USPSA rules (simply because they look so familiar to me  ).

 

The IPSC rules may be different.  I wouldn't know.

 

George - You're quite correct!

 

What the IPSC rule does is to permit the shooter to carry the mags picked up from (for example) a table after the start signal and carry them ANYWHERE ON HIS PERSON HE CHOOSES TO.  The Divisional requirements in the appendices are overruled.

 

Mike

 

USPSA RM

IROA CRO

[oldmanjack]

Yes bret I get that would be rule 5.2.5.3 that pjb45 has already mentioned. Given rule 5.2.5.3 what is the alternate way on exploiting rule 5.2.4.1?

Is putting the earth magnet in your pocket the only solution in order to take advantage of rule 5.2.4.1? Okay let me put it another way, when, how and why would this rule (5.2.4.1) be implimented or allowed by a range official? Does this really need to be in the rule book given the consensus so far? it is pretty much cancelled out with the implimentation of rule 5.2.5.3 or is it?

Rule 5.2.4.1 does have a portion that states, "this will not be treated as contravention of Divisional equipment placement rules". When would that portion of the rule be considered by a range official? This is the portion of rule 5.2.4.1 I am trying to undertsand better. Does this mean I can permanantly install a magnetic magazine holder in contravention of divisional equipment placement rules because there is a stage that meets with the requirements mentioned in rule 5.2.4.1? As long as I do not use it other than a stage in the match that meets with the requirements of rule 5.2.4.1? Is rule 5.2.4.1, my get out jail free card for table or barrel starts? It is not enough to make a brief statement and chalk it up to a lost cause in a topic that still has not concluded with a definite answer.

Okay, okay...at the least help me understand its application and its allowance, in its implimentation. I think there is something to learn from the propper implimentation of this for a range official as well for a competitor...so help me out here guys?

[terrydoc]

No all your equipment must comply with divisional requirements. What it means is exactly what it says you can pick up the magazines and carry them anywhere ie: in a front pocket if you wish or in your mouth, BUT your mag pouches and allied equipment ( magnets) MUST still meet the divisional requirements ie; behind the hip bone and meet the 50mm rule.   

[bret]

43 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

George - You're quite correct!

 

What the IPSC rule does is to permit the shooter to carry the mags picked up from (for example) a table after the start signal and carry them ANYWHERE ON HIS PERSON HE CHOOSES TO.  The Divisional requirements in the appendices are overruled.

 

Mike

 

USPSA RM

IROA CRO

So a shooter can change his equipment and use a magnet in production or standard division?

[oldmanjack]

Schutzenmeister....does that mean I can start a match in contravention of divisional equipment placement because the match has a stage that meets the requirements of rule 5.2.4.1? You interpret the rule by stating..."The divisional requirements in the appendices are overruled"? When exactly are they overruled and how? We already know the circumstances when they may be overruled it is indicated it rule 5.2.4.1. Then given rule 5.2.4.1 I can start a match in contravention of divisional equipment placement and not have to worry about contravening rule 5.2.5.3? As long as there is a stage in the match that meets with requirements of rule 5.2.4.1?

Am I understanding you correctly or woul you like to elaborate?

[bret]

12 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

No all your equipment must comply with divisional requirements. What it means is exactly what it says you can pick up the magazines and carry them anywhere ie: in a front pocket if you wish or in your mouth, BUT your mag pouches and allied equipment ( magnets) MUST still meet the divisional requirements ie; behind the hip bone and meet the 50mm rule.   

The OP thinks he can velcro a magnet onto his belt on a magazines on table start, that is altering his allied equipment, Welcome to Open.

[terrydoc]

the OP is incorrect

 

[bret]

Just now, terrydoc said:

the OP is incorrect

 

not if he wants to shoot open.

[oldmanjack]

Okay to summarize so far we have pjb45 has stated: "5.2.4.1 takes presedence over all other rules as it is stated."

bret and Schtzenmeister have stated: "The divisional requirements in appendices are overruled"

And we have terrydoc pointing out the actual common practice that is current today but not necessarily what rule 5.2.4.1 is stating?

I would like to think that rule 5.2.4.1 is a beginning for at the least leveling the playing field with reference to USPSA rules governing divisional placement rules in order to level out the playing between standard division and open division?

[bret]

Just now, oldmanjack said:

Okay to summarize so far we have pjb45 has stated: "5.2.4.1 takes presedence over all other rules as it is stated."

bret and Schtzenmeister have stated: "The divisional requirements in appendices are overruled"

And we have terrydoc pointing out the actual common practice that is current today but not necessarily what rule 5.2.4.1 is stating?

I would like to think that rule 5.2.4.1 is a beginning for at the least leveling the playing field with reference to USPSA rules governing divisional placement rules in order to level out the playing between standard division and open division?

Don't put words in my mouth, the rules are the rules, I never said the appendices are over ruled.

If I was an R.O. and s production shooter used a magnet, I would call the RM and have him bumped to Open.

 

[oldmanjack]

Sorry bret my mistake excuse the oversite.

Okay then I am wrong in the interpretation of rule 5.2.4.1 and would like to thank you all of contributing an enlightning me on rule 5.2.4.1.

I just want to add rule 11.8.1 which states: "Interpretation of these rules and regulations is the responsibility of the IPSC Executive Council".

Also rule 11.8.2 which states:"Persons seeking clarification of any rule are required to submit their question in writing, either by fax, letter or email to IPSC headquarters."

 

In spite of rule 11.8.1 & 11.8.2  I would like to thank the fellowship on the Brian Enos forums and our host for their contribution and their input in acting as Amdassadors and an Executive Council in itself in the enlightenment of I.P.S.C members such as myself.

I got my answer here which is the best Executive Council that can be found on the subject of I.P.S.C. anywhere.

Best Regards & Thanks

 

[terrydoc]

Bret 

You would also be incorrect in that as magnets are allowed in IPSC which is what rules the OP was referring to wasn't he?

[terrydoc]

The issue of placing a magnet in your pocket is also an issue in regards to allied equipment and the hip bone / 50 mm rule.