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Trust but Verify, a Chrono Story.


rowdyb

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To me somewhat troubling is that in the squads I am seat of that went through chrono on Saturday and Sunday bullets were pulled and weighed. The troubling part is if that was not the case at the begging of the match it changed and all competitors did not get the same treatment. Also my gun was not weighed or tried in the box, I don't use extended pads so the box is less of a deal, but my gun is just above the listed weight so I am used to having to remind the chrono officer about the +2 oz part

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14 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

To me somewhat troubling is that in the squads I am seat of that went through chrono on Saturday and Sunday bullets were pulled and weighed. The troubling part is if that was not the case at the begging of the match it changed and all competitors did not get the same treatment. Also my gun was not weighed or tried in the box, I don't use extended pads so the box is less of a deal, but my gun is just above the listed weight so I am used to having to remind the chrono officer about the +2 oz part

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My squad chrono'd on Thursday. 

They asked bullet weights, weighed Guns but didn't box em. 

 

It seems logical and practical to abbreviate some parts of chrono. As long as if you appear to fail to meet a criteria, then they default to the precise method before penalizing a guy. 

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On 4/8/2017 at 8:27 PM, jwhittin said:

The declared bullet weight is allowed if a properly calibrated scale is not available or an acceptable bullet puller isn't available. See Appx C2 10 and 13. 

 

they did have the ability to pull bullets. they pulled one for my wife because being blond, she had no idea what weight bullets she was shooting, and I had run to get the dogs out of the trailer for lunchtime.

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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

they did have the ability to pull bullets. they pulled one for my wife because being blond, she had no idea what weight bullets she was shooting, and I had run to get the dogs out of the trailer for lunchtime.

So basically not a consistent procedure for all competitors.

If I had not made minor I would probably have protested the chrono and from what I have seen I feel I would have had a very good case to take to arbitration.

I don't want to knock the match but I feel like competitive equity is second only to safety in match management priority's, and in this case It is obvious that it moved down the list a little.

 

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so not sure if I mentioned it, as it's very embarrassing towards me but I found a big issue with my reloading set up. and it's entirely my fault.

 

i live in the humid south. my press, a 1050, is in the garage. i leave powder in the measure as I make ammo every other day. like say when i made ammo for Optics Nats and Area 1.

 

well, never having lived somewhere humid before i was worried and taped a small desiccant pack to the top of the lid in my powder hopper. when i took my powder system apart lo and behold what was in the bottom of my powder bell, resting against the bar but this desiccant pack. who knows when i knocked it down in there or it fell in there and i forgot i had it.

 

so yeah, all on me. not very happy with myself. (which is only compounding my new and current frustration as after i just did all this cleaning and adjusting i'm running a new powder and getting very inconsistent drops aaafffttteerr a through cleaning and refresh. ugh!)

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12 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

So basically not a consistent procedure for all competitors.

If I had not made minor I would probably have protested the chrono and from what I have seen I feel I would have had a very good case to take to arbitration.

I don't want to knock the match but I feel like competitive equity is second only to safety in match management priority's, and in this case It is obvious that it moved down the list a little.

 

Hmm. Is there a rule saying chrono has to be the same for everyone? I think the rules (5.8.1.5) specifically allow the RM or other match official to single out competitors for extra chrono treatment.

 

It sounds like you are saying "if i had gone sub minor, I would have tried to protest that they might not have caught everyone." If I were on an arbitration committee, I would probably tell you to use more powder in your loads.

 

But I do agree with the general point, which is that if they're pulling bullets, they should probably do it for everyone, not just the suspicious-looking people.

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29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Hmm. Is there a rule saying chrono has to be the same for everyone? I think the rules (5.8.1.5) specifically allow the RM or other match official to single out competitors for extra chrono treatment.

 

It sounds like you are saying "if i had gone sub minor, I would have tried to protest that they might not have caught everyone." If I were on an arbitration committee, I would probably tell you to use more powder in your loads.

 

But I do agree with the general point, which is that if they're pulling bullets, they should probably do it for everyone, not just the suspicious-looking people.

I guess my point is, if you are not weighing everyone's bullets you should not weigh anyone's, I don't think 5.8.1.5 gives the latitude to do the chronograph test differently for different competitors, it just allows them to test anyone's ammo at their discretion. I believe the  "or other tests" portion of the rule allows for testing things other than chrono items, such as AP projectiles ect. 

 

reading the chrono procedure section of the rule book, I believe you can stop using a scale and go with competitor declared weights for the remainder of the competitors, I do not see any leeway to allow for using declared weights then switching back to weighing bullets.

 

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I guess my point is, if you are not weighing everyone's bullets you should not weigh anyone's, I don't think 5.8.1.5 gives the latitude to do the chronograph test differently for different competitors, it just allows them to test anyone's ammo at their discretion. I believe the  "or other tests" portion of the rule allows for testing things other than chrono items, such as AP projectiles ect. 
 
reading the chrono procedure section of the rule book, I believe you can stop using a scale and go with competitor declared weights for the remainder of the competitors, I do not see any leeway to allow for using declared weights then switching back to weighing bullets.
 

If I were on the Arb committee, you would be getting my vote. Chrono is something that needs to be consistent for all competitors.
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Hey, I'm just glad I know what velocities were needed for me to make PF and that I heard three of them. Then I had a rule book and was able to get the match staff to listen to my plea and double check. They did and I got to continue shooting the match. From the very lowest to the highest high of feelings in just minutes.

 

My main point still stands, start out with trust but be observant and verify you're being tested accurately if not appropriately.

 

Hopefully I'm not seen as a pot-stirrer with this now...

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17 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Hey, I'm just glad I know what velocities were needed for me to make PF and that I heard three of them. Then I had a rule book and was able to get the match staff to listen to my plea and double check. They did and I got to continue shooting the match. From the very lowest to the highest high of feelings in just minutes.

 

My main point still stands, start out with trust but be observant and verify you're being tested accurately if not appropriately.

 

Hopefully I'm not seen as a pot-stirrer with this now...

Your not stirring the pot, that would be me :-) like I said overall it was a great match, but the chrono stage was a bit wonky in its execution. 

 

I very much agree with your assertion to verify the results. my son went sub minor years ago at an area match, he was shooting factory ammo and I didn't bother checking it first, after the match I reread the procedure and I believe, like you his best 3 would have made minor just the averages of the first 3 and last 4 didn't make it.

 

I went into this chrono stage a little worried as I knew my ammo was not as much above the PF floor as I would like and everyone I knew said they were coming up about 5PF lower than they had at home. Turns out I must have a slow chrono as I ended up 3 PF higher than I had at home. 

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I went to this match having never been through a Chrono, and with factory ammo because I didn't have time to verify handloads.  Turns out that S&B .45 ACP FMJ is at 183!  Also, I wouldn't have known if I'd been scored incorrectly, as I'd not studied that part of the rules.  I know now!  On the plus side, I did have my rule book with me, so I know I would have been reading it if something happened.

Edited by MAC702
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3 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Wow, I've got a Great Idea for you Mac ...    :)

 

I'd try to find something that is a little lighter - that's a disadvantage

to you as a competitor.

You should charge money for advice that good!

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13 hours ago, Got2beshooting said:

I knew from the moment I met you at optics nationals, you were a sandbagger. Haha just kidding Rowdy. Good job on keeping up on the rules.


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hahah, no sand bagger. i'm a great A class shooter but only an average M class.

 

just don't have me load ammo for you that you'll chrono! hahahaha

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