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Trust but Verify, a Chrono Story.


rowdyb

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Day one of big match done and sitting good in standings. First part of day two is chrono and I'm up first.

 

Chrono guy, "What division? What bullet weight? Place a cleared gun and empty magazine on the mat."

 

Me, "Production, 147 and here you go" placing a cleared gun and empty mag on the mat. Chrono guy weighs my gun and checks it in the box. He then asks for three bullets of my belt which I give him.

 

First shot very sub minor. Second shot barely over. Third shot barely over. So average has me fail. Mr Chrono asks for three more bullets which I give him. First one is well over minor. Second and third just barely under. Average has me failing.

 

I say, "Don't I get the average of my best two?"

 

Mr Chrono, "No, that's not how it works. Do you want to pull or shoot the 7th bullet?"

 

Me, "Shoot it." Sub minor!

 

Mr Chrono, "You can still shoot for no score." I tell him not thanks and that I'd rather just go home. I say good by to my squad and start to walk back to the car. But something is bugging me. I'm pretty sure I heard three numbers that would have had me make minor. I stop and dig out the rule book. Sure enough, you get the three highest for the average, not just each group of three. I keep the rule book open to that page and return to Chrono.

 

Me, "I think my number was calculated wrong. I'd like you to do it again but by hand."

 

Chrono guy, "This isn't my first rodeo. The machine is calibrated and it takes the three for the average, everything is working right." I then ask for him to call the Range Master and I wait.

 

Range Master gets to bay and says, "Oh no, it's not good when the competitor is standing there with the rule book open....."

 

I tell him my story, show him the rule book and ask, "I want you to take the three highest numbers from my shots, do the math on a phone or calculator and show me whether I passed of failed that way. Please, do it by hand and show me."

 

RM and Chrono guy confer. Chrono guy reaffirms machine is set up right and all data is calculated properly and says he did everything right.

 

Chrono guy's assistant reads off my three highest numbers, 855, 878, 868 (approximate from memory and I know all over the 851 I need for my bullet weight) The double check those are indeed my three highest of the 7 rounds shot and that when the math is done, I am at 127pf and am BACK IN THE MATCH!

 

I thanked them for double checking and told them I hoped I had not been a jerk about the process. And then I went and got my gun back on!

 

Lessons:

  • Do not run close to the edge. This ammo batch had recently been chronoed at 128pf the weekend before at Optics Nats. That's too close.
  • Know your numbers. So when they are read or displayed you know where you're at.
  • Know the rules and make sure they are followed. A simple slip in procedure or set up could take you out of the match.
  • Don't be afraid to ask for something to be explained or proven to you.
  • Do things nicely and calmly. Firm and fair but still without causing a fight.
  • Develop the mental toughness that lets you go from an 'out of the match' emotion to 'back in it and go for it!' mindset.

 

I went home and tore my powder measure apart. I had a long time ago taped a small desiccant pack inside the powder measure, living in the South and with all the high humidity and such. In my not paying attention at some time it had fallen into the powder and was down at the bottom of the bell crank and near the powder bar. Surely causing a fluctuation in my powder drops. Everything cleaned, re-assembled and tested. Back to working order!

 

Unspoken worry? What about the other people who were told they went sub minor or didn't make major? Were their numbers possibly correct? I didn't ask or stick around for that but it sounded like they realized it too and were going to run the numbers again by hand for those people and get to them. As this is a match admin thing and out of my hands I have no idea what went on there.

 

Thank you to the RM and Chrono guy for being humble enough to realize something needed to be looked at and doing it. And not just stubbornly sticking to the "It's not my first rodeo, the machine is right" kind of talk and thinking.

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You don't have to thank them for going by the rule book.

chrono guy should have known that.

but you were very close to losing a lot of money, I BET THAT WONT HAPPEN Again!

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I always verify my power factor before a major match. Sometimes goofy things happen. Last fall I got a new STI for this season, I always check my powder drop for weight when loading and decided I should chrono the ammo in the new gun. Normally 6.8 Autocomp and a 124gr bullet gives me 172 power factor. I chronoed it with the new gun and got 164, WTF??? I made some more ammo, making sure of the powder charge and got the same thing. I had to bump my powder up to 7gr to get back to 174. Just showed me that the same load in a different gun isn't always the same. (btw, the 6.8 load in my old gun came out to 172)

 

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Saw one where they went sub because they ordered 124 grain bullets but got shipped 115 grainers.  They did not check the box or weight them prior to loading them up.  Got to chrono and was told they weighed 115.  He gave them another one to verify it and was shocked to find out they actually were 115's.

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@rowdyb yikes. Well, glad you got it worked out and took the time to verify the rules yourself.

 

Another good example along the lines of what @Poppa Bear just said: The Bayou 150 grain semi-wadcutters I'm currently shooting? They all weigh 145.0-147.5 and that could be a painful fact to discover at a match. 

 

I always do my PF calculations using a projectile weight I measure myself, and not with the manufacturer's data.

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Sounds like Area 1 :).  I shot the R/O match Wed/Thursday.  My match load of 4.9 grains of N320 with a 180 gr. .40 HAP chronoed 174.0 before I left home.  But thats at sea level, high humidity and 80 degrees.  At the chrono station it went 170.2.  Still major, but it went a lot slower than I thought it would.  My guess was 172-173 pf. 5.1 grains of N320 got me 176.7 pf at A2 a few weeks ago.  Bottom line; the chrono is VOODOO.  Load to around 10pf points higher than the minimum you are looking for.  135-137 pf for minor, 174-176pf for major. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, blaster113 said:

  Load to around 10pf points higher than the minimum you are looking for.  135-137 pf for minor, 174-176pf for major. 

 

Better safe than sorry, but not sure you have to go that high ...

 

I like  all 20 rounds  thru the chrono to be at PF (125 or 170) - that usually averages out to about PF 132 and 172, for me.

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I've loaded to 172 pf at home, and had ammo go 168 pf over the chrono at a major.  Too close for me.  Major pf is major pf, but I cant tell the difference between 172 pf and 174 pf when shooting at speed so I just go ahead an load hotter so there's no stress at all at the chrono station.

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Two concurrent stories here. One, that I had an undiscovered issue in my powder drop leading to some wild velocity swings.

 

Secondly, that what the operators thought was a properly functioning system to use your three highest rounds to determine if you were making power factor, was in fact not correct in my instance.

 

The first one is in my control and fixed. Along with some other lessons re-learned. The second one, where most people just blindly trust a match official and equipment is the one that concerns me the most.

 

What about anyone else at that match who was told at the Chrono station they shot sub minor? Or didn't make major? And like me, truly did but then shot the match for no score or a much different score.

 

Were people just in a groove and going blindly along? Was Mr "It's not my first rodeo" capable of setting up the equipment properly or did he treat it as plug and play, because hey it worked before? All this is supposition and just guessing. I don't know what caused the mistake in my case.

 

What I do know is you better pay attention at every stage of the match, not just the ones you're shooting. Don't let someone else's mistake keep you from finishing.

 

Trust but verify. Your end and theirs.

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I'll second everything Rowdy said about "trust but verify". 

 

At a L2 match last September the chrono man was using a CED Millennium 2, like many do, but he wasn't clearing it after each shooter.  The guy before me was in Production and registered velocities in the 960s for his 135 grain bullets.  His average was Minor.  I stepped up, handed Chrono Guy my 38sc Open gun, and he ran three rounds in the high 1300s.  He punched some buttons and came out with ... 960 something.  I asked him to run the last three, watched it register in the high 1300s.  He punched some buttons and came out with ... 960 something.  Several of us said that couldn't be right, and he checked again and found the right string, and I came out in Major.  (Pure carelessness from an "experienced" chrono operator, and it's very distracting to the shooter to have to process this during a match.) 

 

So, watch the numbers, even write them down.  If needed, do the math yourself.  Don't let it go if it's "sub" - check and make sure everything is above-board. 

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2 hours ago, teros135 said:

I'll second everything Rowdy said about "trust but verify". 

 

At a L2 match last September the chrono man was using a CED Millennium 2, like many do, but he wasn't clearing it after each shooter.  The guy before me was in Production and registered velocities in the 960s for his 135 grain bullets.  His average was Minor.  I stepped up, handed Chrono Guy my 38sc Open gun, and he ran three rounds in the high 1300s.  He punched some buttons and came out with ... 960 something.  I asked him to run the last three, watched it register in the high 1300s.  He punched some buttons and came out with ... 960 something.  Several of us said that couldn't be right, and he checked again and found the right string, and I came out in Major.  (Pure carelessness from an "experienced" chrono operator, and it's very distracting to the shooter to have to process this during a match.) 

 

So, watch the numbers, even write them down.  If needed, do the math yourself.  Don't let it go if it's "sub" - check and make sure everything is above-board. 

In your case, PF was beginning to stand for "Pucker Factor" instead of "Power Factor".

 

Related to the above, if you had not noticed what the chrono guy was doing, and he declared your ammo "minor", and after the next shots, still declared your ammo minor (pointless to shoot or pull the last bullet now), what recourse do you have? 

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My first major (Area 5 last August) shooting limited major and I got down to the last bullet too...end result was 165.4 power factor.  I won't do that to myself again.  Bumped the load a couple tenths of a grain and now I feel that I will comfortably make major the next time.  Of course I have a chrono and had chrono'd the load for Area 5...was about 169 on my chrono...same lesson as the OP to not run that close to the edge.

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38 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

In your case, PF was beginning to stand for "Pucker Factor" instead of "Power Factor".

 

Related to the above, if you had not noticed what the chrono guy was doing, and he declared your ammo "minor", and after the next shots, still declared your ammo minor (pointless to shoot or pull the last bullet now), what recourse do you have? 

 

The sound and impact of a 38sc shooting at major PF is REAL different from the same gun shooting at 119 PF, and I can't figure why anybody wouldn't notice that and question it.  I'd probably ask for the RM, explain the situation, and see if it could be reshot.  Ultimately, it could go to arbitration. 

 

However, I'll never walk up to chrono again without the bottom-line velocity in mind (in this case, 1331 fps) and be watching the chrono display like a hawk AND writing the numbers down on my hand with a pen. Also, if the bullet is declared to be underweight I would ask to see it being weighed. 

 

As an aside, at one match everybody's bullets were weighed at 1 grain less than any of us were getting at home, and that translated into about 1 PF lower.  That can make the difference.  I might start bringing my calibration weights with me, 'cause I'll bet somebody was downgraded at that match who would normally have just squeaked by.  Fairness, y'now. 

Edited by teros135
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Interesting. I was at Area 1chrono just yesterday. I failed the first at 164.1 PF due to one low round (8XX fps). I passed after the second group of three, and they also averaged the group of second three instead of the best 3 out of 6.

 

Maybe all chrono guys should read the rule book. Funny thing is this guy's license plate reads CHRONOMAN  (don't know how he abbreviated it) or something similar, so I guess he does it a lot.

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This is excellent information.  I have always just taken their word for it.... I've never gone minor but will remember this next time I see someone go minor.  

You have an excellent success story here, and I think applies to all situations.  We are all human and tend to "memorize" things differently.

 

As a person that documents technical procedures and then has to watch as others try to follow them it's staggering how differently people interpret "simple instructions."  This happens all the time, and that's why a competitor is NEVER in the wrong for asking to have any issue spelled out for them until they have a complete understanding.  

 

I think the most important parts I'll take away are:

First and foremost, PAY ATTENTION and run those numbers on your own simultaneously.  I'll be watching closely now. 

Secondly is the part about being nice.  Anyone will instantly put a wall up if they are attacked.  If you can prevent that, even with their own work being called into question most people will help rather than hinder. 

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

 

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I had the Pucker Factor when I chrono'd at A1 on Sunday. I wasn't really paying much attention to exact numbers but everything was over 1350fps (shooting 124 9 major). Chrono guy types in my bullet weight (123.9 weighed) after 3 shots and it comes up 138pf. He asks me if I declared minor. I said no and my face turns white and my heart sinks because everything I had chrono'd on my CED was 172-174pf. He checks and re-types in my bullet weight and it pops up at 174! I don't think I've ever been so relieved in my shooting career. 

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I thought everyone knew it was best 3 out of 6 (or 7)  shots.

 

I also thought everyone knew gunpowder is not hygroscopic.

 

I also thought everyone knew that 128pf is cutting it too close. Some guns won't even run reliably that low.

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For those who do not have the rules in front of them...

37. If the resultant power factor fails to meet the declared power factor floor, 
another three rounds will be fired over the chronograph. The power factor 
will be recalculated using the bullet weight and the average velocity of the 
three highest velocity rounds from the six rounds fired.
38. If the power factor is still insufficient, the competitor may elect to 
have:
a. the final bullet pulled and weighed and, if heavier than the first bullet, 
the power factor calculation in Paragraph 36 will be recalculated using 
the heavier bullet weight, or
b. the final round fired over the chronograph and the power factor recal-
culated using the first bullet weight, and the average velocity of the 
three highest velocity rounds from the seven rounds fired.

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